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freespeech wrote:To give some more detail of why I can't reconcile things......I have had my pension estimates (aged 55) from both RMSPS and RMPP but only my annual statement from RMSPS. If I look at my NRA60 on the annual statement I get a figure (inc supplement) of £17437. If I reduce this by 25% for taking it five years early that reduces to £13077. However, my early pension estimate gives £14,459. The figures look too good to be true......
Don't forget that some of your pension is moved from RMPP to RMSPS.
That's why my RMSPS pension quote was far better than the orignal old style illustration and my NRA 65 RMPP much less.
Stephen beat me to that reply.
it does sound as if you're including the first 2 years of the NRA65 in your calculations?
It's also probably best to wait until you have your RMPP statement, before you try to reconcile your NRA65, DBCBS and AVC's into the overall equation.
freespeech wrote:To give some more detail of why I can't reconcile things......I have had my pension estimates (aged 55) from both RMSPS and RMPP but only my annual statement from RMSPS. If I look at my NRA60 on the annual statement I get a figure (inc supplement) of £17437. If I reduce this by 25% for taking it five years early that reduces to £13077. However, my early pension estimate gives £14,459. The figures look too good to be true......
Don't forget that some of your pension is moved from RMPP to RMSPS.
That's why my RMSPS pension quote was far better than the orignal old style illustration and my NRA 65 RMPP much less.
I get that......but I am comparing this years RMSPS statement with ONLY THE RMSPS part of my pension estimate (which has been reduced due to taking it at 55). They should be like for like (after the 25% reduction in the statement) except the estimate is for the additional time since April 1st (date of the statement). They are nearly £1500 per year different.
freespeech wrote:To give some more detail of why I can't reconcile things......I have had my pension estimates (aged 55) from both RMSPS and RMPP but only my annual statement from RMSPS. If I look at my NRA60 on the annual statement I get a figure (inc supplement) of £17437. If I reduce this by 25% for taking it five years early that reduces to £13077. However, my early pension estimate gives £14,459. The figures look too good to be true......
Don't forget that some of your pension is moved from RMPP to RMSPS.
That's why my RMSPS pension quote was far better than the orignal old style illustration and my NRA 65 RMPP much less.
Stephen beat me to that reply.
it does sound as if you're including the first 2 years of the NRA65 in your calculations?
It's also probably best to wait until you have your RMPP statement, before you try to reconcile your NRA65, DBCBS and AVC's into the overall equation.
I'm comparing the actuarily reduced pension estimate from RMSPS I received this week totally separate from my annual statements. I have received my annual RMSPS statement so its a direct comparison with that - no calculations on my part at all other than to reduce my annual statement by 25%. My RMPP NRA60 estimate adds an additional £2600 to this but I haven't included that at all.
RobertT wrote:In previous years, the annual statement date was always 31st March, the RMSPS one this year is 1st April for some reason.
The quotes for taking your pensions from RMSPS and RMPP are presumably dated September/October?
I agree that it's a complete mess, and can't really see why rough DBCBS and AVC's figures can't be included in the initial quotes to at least give a reasonable idea of how much to expect.
Although with a bit of maths and perhaps some help from this forum, I don't think it's too difficult to calculate ballpark figures yourself.
So, the actual figures I have had for taking all my pension at 55 is either a pension of £21,497 and no LS or a pension of £17,178 with a LS of £103,869. These are actuarily reduced figures and NOT derived from this years pension statements. This doesn't include my AVC's (which total around £9k) nor my cash balance fund which was £11k last year so I am expecting it to be £22k on this years statement and approx £29k up to October. So my question is, with this £38k (£9k AVC's and £29k CB fund) how much of it could fund the max LS of £103K? My own workings suggest that if it is around £23k (ie reduced due to early retirement) then that would reduce the LS needed from the two schemes to £80k and increase my pension to around £18,170.
Wow, are you a manager! I thought I had a good pension and I can't get any where near that! Good luck to you.
I am taking mine at 59 years and 10 months. (2 months early NRA 60 and 5 years 2 months early NRA 65)
For NRA 65 if you choose option 2A (RMPP) then you can get your annual pension without reduction and just pay tax on 75% of the excess DBCBS.
As for NRA60/65 (RMSPS) you can choose to to lose around 15% to get a max 25 % lump sum or any percentage in between,
Use my slides above of my actual pension quotes (my pensionable pay is £29000 with 27 years FS, 10 years CSDB and 2 years 8 months DBCBS) PHG reserved rights, fully pensionable night allowance.
You should be easily able to work out your DBCBS (it is on page 2 of your RMPP statement for this year)
It will at least run to April 2021. So thats 19.6% of your pensionable pay times 3 years.
I used to think I would lose 25% of DBCBS for taking it early, but I appear to have only lost around 8% for taking it 5 years and 2 months early.
It's hard to calculate how they work it out. But if you look at what would have been your max lump sum (nra 65 rmpp) Then for option 2A take your min lump sum and take from your DBCBS enough money to take you up to your old max Lump sum. What you have left of the DBCBS is your excess DBCBS and that is taxed at your tax rate on 75% of that fund, with 25% being tax free. (My quote with my original tax free DBCBS added to the standard Lump sum was just a little more than the orignial max Lump sum, but not much more).
I recognised, early on, that the FS scheme was going to pay the majority of my pension so I have been careful to stay within the "job family" I was in when the scheme ceased. This has meant I have picked up additional increases as well as the usual increases and this has proved to be the right decision given the figures.
I haven't needed to "work anything out" as I am comparing the actual forecast from RMSPS received this week with my annual statement from RMSPS also received this week. Neither have included the RMPP element which is additional. Interestingly I don't have any "2A" option at all only Max pension or max LS.
freespeech wrote:To give some more detail of why I can't reconcile things......I have had my pension estimates (aged 55) from both RMSPS and RMPP but only my annual statement from RMSPS. If I look at my NRA60 on the annual statement I get a figure (inc supplement) of £17437. If I reduce this by 25% for taking it five years early that reduces to £13077. However, my early pension estimate gives £14,459. The figures look too good to be true......
Don't forget that some of your pension is moved from RMPP to RMSPS.
That's why my RMSPS pension quote was far better than the orignal old style illustration and my NRA 65 RMPP much less.
I get that......but I am comparing this years RMSPS statement with ONLY THE RMSPS part of my pension estimate (which has been reduced due to taking it at 55). They should be like for like (after the 25% reduction in the statement) except the estimate is for the additional time since April 1st (date of the statement). They are nearly £1500 per year different.
My RMSPS statement is nearly pound for pound as per the pension quote I have had and am due to take in November.
The annual illustration, is just that – a guide to what you may get based on your pay on a certain date.
It may be possible in your case therefore, that your promotion/s are only factored in when you ask for a quote for actually taking your pension, which is when they sit down and work out the specific amounts you'll receive, based on your pay and allowances, etc?
Stephen is in section B, while you're in C, so the quotes for taking your pension will be a little different!
RobertT wrote:In previous years, the annual statement date was always 31st March, the RMSPS one this year is 1st April for some reason.
The quotes for taking your pensions from RMSPS and RMPP are presumably dated September/October?
I agree that it's a complete mess, and can't really see why rough DBCBS and AVC's figures can't be included in the initial quotes to at least give a reasonable idea of how much to expect.
Although with a bit of maths and perhaps some help from this forum, I don't think it's too difficult to calculate ballpark figures yourself.
So, the actual figures I have had for taking all my pension at 55 is either a pension of £21,497 and no LS or a pension of £17,178 with a LS of £103,869. These are actuarily reduced figures and NOT derived from this years pension statements. This doesn't include my AVC's (which total around £9k) nor my cash balance fund which was £11k last year so I am expecting it to be £22k on this years statement and approx £29k up to October. So my question is, with this £38k (£9k AVC's and £29k CB fund) how much of it could fund the max LS of £103K? My own workings suggest that if it is around £23k (ie reduced due to early retirement) then that would reduce the LS needed from the two schemes to £80k and increase my pension to around £18,170.
Wow, are you a manager! I thought I had a good pension and I can't get any where near that! Good luck to you.
I am taking mine at 59 years and 10 months. (2 months early NRA 60 and 5 years 2 months early NRA 65)
For NRA 65 if you choose option 2A (RMPP) then you can get your annual pension without reduction and just pay tax on 75% of the excess DBCBS.
As for NRA60/65 (RMSPS) you can choose to to lose around 15% to get a max 25 % lump sum or any percentage in between,
Use my slides above of my actual pension quotes (my pensionable pay is £29000 with 27 years FS, 10 years CSDB and 2 years 8 months DBCBS) PHG reserved rights, fully pensionable night allowance.
You should be easily able to work out your DBCBS (it is on page 2 of your RMPP statement for this year)
It will at least run to April 2021. So thats 19.6% of your pensionable pay times 3 years.
I used to think I would lose 25% of DBCBS for taking it early, but I appear to have only lost around 8% for taking it 5 years and 2 months early.
It's hard to calculate how they work it out. But if you look at what would have been your max lump sum (nra 65 rmpp) Then for option 2A take your min lump sum and take from your DBCBS enough money to take you up to your old max Lump sum. What you have left of the DBCBS is your excess DBCBS and that is taxed at your tax rate on 75% of that fund, with 25% being tax free. (My quote with my original tax free DBCBS added to the standard Lump sum was just a little more than the orignial max Lump sum, but not much more).
I recognised, early on, that the FS scheme was going to pay the majority of my pension so I have been careful to stay within the "job family" I was in when the scheme ceased. This has meant I have picked up additional increases as well as the usual increases and this has proved to be the right decision given the figures.
I haven't needed to "work anything out" as I am comparing the actual forecast from RMSPS received this week with my annual statement from RMSPS also received this week. Neither have included the RMPP element which is additional. Interestingly I don't have any "2A" option at all only Max pension or max LS.
Option 2 A (Section B) is availble as the slide above for the RMPP NRA 65 pension.
I personally chose option 2 for RMSPS NRA 60/65
freespeech wrote:To give some more detail of why I can't reconcile things......I have had my pension estimates (aged 55) from both RMSPS and RMPP but only my annual statement from RMSPS. If I look at my NRA60 on the annual statement I get a figure (inc supplement) of £17437. If I reduce this by 25% for taking it five years early that reduces to £13077. However, my early pension estimate gives £14,459. The figures look too good to be true......
Don't forget that some of your pension is moved from RMPP to RMSPS.
That's why my RMSPS pension quote was far better than the orignal old style illustration and my NRA 65 RMPP much less.
I get that......but I am comparing this years RMSPS statement with ONLY THE RMSPS part of my pension estimate (which has been reduced due to taking it at 55). They should be like for like (after the 25% reduction in the statement) except the estimate is for the additional time since April 1st (date of the statement). They are nearly £1500 per year different.
My RMSPS statement is nearly pound for pound as per the pension quote I have had and am due to take in November.
RobertT wrote:The annual illustration, is just that – a guide to what you may get based on your pay on a certain date.
It may be possible in your case therefore, that your promotion/s are only factored in when you ask for a quote for actually taking your pension, which is when they sit down and work out the specific amounts you'll receive, based on your pay and allowances, etc?
Stephen is in section B, while you're in C, so the quotes for taking your pension will be a little different!
There could be some merit in that but they are still well off the calculations you have advised on this forum. Thankfully they are to my advantage but having to effectively sign up to taking your pension and hoping it stays the same is worrying!
I have every confidence in your advise being correct but I wonder whether, due to my unusual circumstances, I don’t fit the usual approach. The original comments still stand though.....it’s a mess, we should all be able to see the workings in our pension regardless of our circumstances. My NRA60 is 83% of the RMSPS annual statement and NRA65 68%. I was expecting 75% and 50%.
So, now in receipt of both statements and both estimates of retirement at 55 I have the following split....
My annual statements are 85% RMSPS and 15% RMPP for NRA60, my retirement estimates are exactly the same.
For NRA65 my annual statements are 77% RMPP and 23% RMSPS where as the retirement estimates are 74% RMPP and 26% RMSPS.
Overall then not much difference. What it has highlighted though is that in my particular circumstances the usual calculations shown on this board has underestimated my overall pot (at 55) by just over £2k. That is NOT intended as a criticism and more an observation if anyone else is reading this and is still in the same job family as they were within the final salary scheme and has also received promotional increases since then too.
freespeech wrote:So, now in receipt of both statements and both estimates of retirement at 55 I have the following split....
My annual statements are 85% RMSPS and 15% RMPP for NRA60, my retirement estimates are exactly the same.
For NRA65 my annual statements are 77% RMPP and 23% RMSPS where as the retirement estimates are 74% RMPP and 26% RMSPS.
Overall then not much difference. What it has highlighted though is that in my particular circumstances the usual calculations shown on this board has underestimated my overall pot (at 55) by just over £2k. That is NOT intended as a criticism and more an observation if anyone else is reading this and is still in the same job family as they were within the final salary scheme and has also received promotional increases since then too.
Thankfully the error is in my favour.
What’s the % reduction on your NRA60 and NRA65 respectively for taking at 55?
Does the old rule of taking of 25% for NRA60 and 50% for NRA65, still work out as an accurate guide.
freespeech wrote:So, now in receipt of both statements and both estimates of retirement at 55 I have the following split....
My annual statements are 85% RMSPS and 15% RMPP for NRA60, my retirement estimates are exactly the same.
For NRA65 my annual statements are 77% RMPP and 23% RMSPS where as the retirement estimates are 74% RMPP and 26% RMSPS.
Overall then not much difference. What it has highlighted though is that in my particular circumstances the usual calculations shown on this board has underestimated my overall pot (at 55) by just over £2k. That is NOT intended as a criticism and more an observation if anyone else is reading this and is still in the same job family as they were within the final salary scheme and has also received promotional increases since then too.
Thankfully the error is in my favour.
What’s the % reduction on your NRA60 and NRA65 respectively for taking at 55? Does the old rule of taking of 25% for NRA60 and 50% for NRA65, still work out as an accurate guide.
Many thanks.
The estimates are for 55....the annual statements are at the usual NRA60 and NRA65........the usual 25% and 50% was too much in my case.
In comparing the reduced estimates to the yearly statement I have the following reductions......
NRA60......RMPP reduced by 12% and RMSPS reduced by 17% (expected 25%)
NRA65.....RMPP reduced by 42% and RMSPS reduced by 32% (expected 50%)
Overall my combined reductions were reduced by 31% in the RMPP and 18% in RMSPS.
NorthernBoy wrote:Thanks for the info, I am pleased that your figures have not been reduced as much as you thought.
However, something doesn’t look right to me as I don’t see why the figures would deviate so much from the 25% reduction for nra 60.
I agree..I’ve read and reread the estimates to see whether they are definitely already actuarily reduced and that’s what they say. I even wondered whether they already include a degree of the cash balance fund but there is reference to that too as not being included. Where can I go from here? The only option seems to be tick the box and then get a 100% figure but then there is no turning back. It’s madness.
NorthernBoy wrote:Thanks for the info, I am pleased that your figures have not been reduced as much as you thought.
However, something doesn’t look right to me as I don’t see why the figures would deviate so much from the 25% reduction for nra 60.
I agree..I’ve read and reread the estimates to see whether they are definitely already actuarily reduced and that’s what they say. I even wondered whether they already include a degree of the cash balance fund but there is reference to that too as not being included. Where can I go from here? The only option seems to be tick the box and then get a 100% figure but then there is no turning back. It’s madness.
Might be worth just checking your NRA60 statement from last year and seeing what the reduction % based is on this figure?
