NRA 65......Be careful

[Hawkey99]

Today I received my NRA 65 quote from the Royal Mail Pension Plan.

The quote was

£3125 without lump sum
£2456 with a 16K lump sum.

My quote last year was

£3805 without a lump sum
£2990 with a 19K lump sum.

I phoned them due to the reduction in the amounts and of course they told me I have another statement for the remainder being sent from Capita who hold the RMSPS part of my scheme.

They also said that the only way to work out your DBCBS benefits is from your statement when you receive it and that you could take that lump sum instead or as well as the NRA 65 lump sum.

Reason for post is to make others aware you will be receiving 2 quotes when you get your pensions and how blooming complicated it is.....

I wonder what % of your NRA 65 Capita hold in the RMSPS....

Any thoughts ???

[RobertT]

In terms of number of years, in your case it sounds like 25%.

We were told we'd be getting 2 illustrations back in April.

[deltaforce]

They tell you in the pack also. My dbcbs was Roughly £11000 to £12000 off the top of my head to be paid in Nov.

[stephen500]

Today I received my NRA 65 quote from the Royal Mail Pension Plan.

The quote was

£3125 without lump sum
£2456 with a 16K lump sum.

My quote last year was

£3805 without a lump sum
£2990 with a 19K lump sum.

I phoned them due to the reduction in the amounts and of course they told me I have another statement for the remainder being sent from Capita who hold the RMSPS part of my scheme.

They also said that the only way to work out your DBCBS benefits is from your statement when you receive it and that you could take that lump sum instead or as well as the NRA 65 lump sum.

Reason for post is to make others aware you will be receiving 2 quotes when you get your pensions and how blooming complicated it is.....

I wonder what % of your NRA 65 Capita hold in the RMSPS....

Any thoughts ???

First are you section B or C?
Second and you are prob aware of this. Your illustrations you get each year bear no resemblence to what you will actually get from each scheme, as the RMSPS pension also includes monies from RMPP. I think mine was 40% and so although my NRA 60 started off at £9773 annual pension and £29,319 min lump sum (£55,400 max LS) and my NRA 65 £3748 annual pension and £11,242 min lump sum (£21,000 approx max LS) and £13,000 DBCBS. It actually turned out as the following (off the top of my head)
Section B NRA 60 taking min LS £11,211 annual pension and min LS £33,770. Or as I chose option 2 £9577.33 annual pension (16% reduction for taking max LS and 2 months early, for section C this would be a 25% reduction, taking max LS in lieu of pension) and £63848 max LS. And as I am taking my NRA 65 at the same time some of my NRA 65 is transferred to RMSPS from RMPP. I could have had £600.34 annual pension and £1976 min LS. I chose £519 annual pension and £3463 max LS (once again having a reduction of I would think 26% for taking it 5 years and 2 months early.
Now I had my quotes from RMPP for NRA 65 and they where less because some of it is paid by RMSPS as shown beforehand. Now the RMPP quote was for option 2a (section B) £1751.82 annual pension and £5767 min LS + £5911.44 DBCBS tax free LS (of my £13776 DBCBS) and £7867 excess DBCBS (25% tax free and 75% taxed £1170) Section C in order to get a standard LS can give up to 25% up of their pension and then choose what to do with the DBCBS (annunity, take it out or choose an uncrystallised fund pension payment (UFPLS) and get 25% tax free on top of their standard LS (tax free) and pay tax on 75%.
So my comparable figures in the illustration where.
NRA 60 £9675 annual pension, min LS £29025 (with 1% reduction)
NRA 65 £2773 annual pension, min LS £8319 (with 26% reduction)
Actual pension benefits to be paid if I chose min LS option
NRA 60 £11,211 annual pension , min LS £33,770
NRA 65 (part of RMSPS) £ 600 annual pension £1976 min LS
NRA 65 RMPP only £1751 annual pension £5767 min LS
DBCBS £13776
So altogether NRA 60 as shown above
NRA 65 combined £2351 annual pension £7743 min LS
Total combined £13562 annual pension and £41,513 min LS + DBCBS
or as I took it
NRA 60 capita RMSPS(option 2) £9577 annual pension £63848 max LS
NRA 65 capita (RMSPS) £519 annual pension and £3463 max LS
NRA 65 (RMPP) £1751 annual pension £5765 min LS + £5911 tax free DBCBS + excess DBCBS £7865 (75% taxed, 25% tax free (£1170 tax)
So you can see my NRA 60 and 65 (RMSPS) is much larger than my original illustration of NRA 60 alone (I think 40% was transferred across ) and My stand alone NRA65 at RMPP a lot less.
Whether this helps you with your calculations, I have no idea! Hope it helps.
And yes you get two quotes, one from each scheme. RMSPS NRA60 and part of NRA 65 and RMPP with the remainer of NRA 65.
My RMSPS part of NRA 65 was worth to me £600 a year and £3400 tax free (reduced for early payment)
If you had the same service as me and my pensionable pay, I would say the figures they have given you appear about right, in that I got another £600 annual pension (NRA65 part of RMSPS) and £3400 LS. If I add them to your 2nd quote it turns out about right.
My pensionable pay around £30,0000 with 27 years FS and 10 years CSDB and almost 3 years DBCBS. Night allowance fully pensionable PHG reserved rights.

[Steve_claret]

I wonder what % of your NRA 65 Capita hold in the RMSPS....

Any thoughts ???

2 of the 8 CSDB blocks you accrued from 2010 to 2018 are proper to RMSPS so it should be about 25% of the total. The RMPP have given you their part which should therefore be about 75% of the total. Your last annual illustration will not have split this part of the pension into RMSPS or RMPP and has just given you a combined amount. When you get both estimates then the combined amounts without LS should now be worth about £3.9K per year with another years increase.
Use all of your DBCBS which will probably be worth about £14K for your LS so as not to reduce your annual pension. If you take all of your LS from your pension you will not only get a much lower annual pension but also have to pay tax on your excess DBCBS when you get it.

[midegarelu]

Divide and conquer.

Someone sat in an office and realised that if he made the Pension as difficult as possible to follow then RM would save millions in payout of pension.

[Hawkey99]

Yes Im Section C.

Some fantastic comments...Many thanks to all especially Stephen500.

Greatly appreciated....

[stephen500]

I wonder what % of your NRA 65 Capita hold in the RMSPS....

Any thoughts ???

2 of the 8 CSDB blocks you accrued from 2010 to 2018 are proper to RMSPS so it should be about 25% of the total. The RMPP have given you their part which should therefore be about 75% of the total. Your last annual illustration will not have split this part of the pension into RMSPS or RMPP and has just given you a combined amount. When you get both estimates then the combined amounts without LS should now be worth about £3.9K per year with another years increase.
Use all of your DBCBS which will probably be worth about £14K for your LS so as not to reduce your annual pension. If you take all of your LS from your pension you will not only get a much lower annual pension but also have to pay tax on your excess DBCBS when you get it.

FS ended 31st march 2008 and CSDB started from 1st Apr 2008 , and RMSPS are responsible up to 2012. So unless 2 blocks have vanished, 4 blocks must be handled by RMSPS and that would be 40% of the CSDB blocks.
"CSDB service blocks 1 April 2008 to 31st March 2019" 10 blocks (illustration 2019)
The figures below won't tally perfectly, but there is no way only 20% of my CSDB has been transferred to RMSPS, it is too big a hit of my NRA65 RMPP.
I have no idea how it worked out, but to me around 40% of my CSDB was transferred to my RMSPS from my illustration.
The 2019 illustration showed my CSDB pension at £3748 if I take 40% away for transferring to RMSPS that leaves £2248, if I then deduct 26% for taking it 5 years and 2 months early, it reduces to £1664 (it actually showns up on my final figures as £1751. So my NRA 65 (RMPP) is £1758 around 53% lower.
Yet although my NRA 60 showed in the illustration as £9675 (with 1% deduction for 2 months early) My quote was £11,211 (16% higher than my illustration figure) and min Lump of £33, 770 set against £29000 in the illustration. I can only presume this is because this includes some of my pension transferred from the CSDB blocks? and to add to that another £600 annual pension was also transferred with another £3463 lump sum. So my NRA 60 was £1536 a year more than expected and I also had £600 from my NRA65 transferred from RMPP? £1536 + £600 = £2136 more than I was expecting from the illustration. Whilst my NRA 65 RMPP was £1758 set against £2876 on illustration = minus £1118. I don't know for sure how it ended up like this, but I am of the opinion that 4 CSDB blocks (40%) have been transferred to RMSPS 2008 to 2012, leaving 2012 to 2018 with RMPP ie 6 years or 60% of the CSDB. It's the only way I can work it out.
I have had my final figures. And £1751 per year divided by 6 = £291 which sounds about right for each yearly CSDB block. It did my head in, trying to get my head around it and many think, they may be right that just two blocks are transferred, but FS ended in 2008 with CSDB starting from then and RMSPS being responsible up to 2012. See what I mean, when I say my head hurts.

[stephen500]

Yes Im Section C.

Some fantastic comments...Many thanks to all especially Stephen500.

Greatly appreciated....

I spoke to a section C member recently and it appears to me, that the best option if you want the maximum lump sums available are: Note SECTION C ONLY
For NRA 60 (RMSPS) option 2 (capita)
For NRA65 (RMSPS ONLY) option 2 (capita)
And
NRA 65 (RMPP) option 2 (giving up 25% of your pension for a lump sum)
For this option it appears you would have to live over 19 years in retirement to start losing money.
Option 2A sees a 5% reduction on your pension, but with a much smaller lump sum, still taking 19 years to lose money.
So option 2 gives you the max tax free cash.
You can also choose to take any amount below the max 25% tax free lump and have a higher pension at any ratio you choose.
To get the most from your DBCBS I would take it as a UFPLS an "uncrystalised fund" (SECTION C ONLY) where you get 25% of that fund tax free and pay tax on 75% at your tax rate.
You can choose to convert the DBCBS to an annuity (not some thing I would do, that's just me, you could take pension advice)
or to take the DBCBS monies out.
So I would choose option 2, giving me, if I was a section C member the max tax free lump sum (25%) I can get for a 25% reduction in annual pension and have the DBCBS as a (UFPLS) an "uncrystalised fund" where 25% is tax free and 75% is taxable.
Below is an example of some section C (NRA 65 RMPP only) workings out.
Remember any one on this forum are just Postmen, we are not financial advisors.
I am giving this as my opinion.
Seek financial advice if you wish, do not make decisions on our thoughts or recommendations alone!
Note the workings out below equal a 26% reduction for option 2, but perhaps that is just rounding up or down?

row 12.jpg

[RobertT]

I wonder what % of your NRA 65 Capita hold in the RMSPS....

Any thoughts ???

2 of the 8 CSDB blocks you accrued from 2010 to 2018 are proper to RMSPS so it should be about 25% of the total. The RMPP have given you their part which should therefore be about 75% of the total. Your last annual illustration will not have split this part of the pension into RMSPS or RMPP and has just given you a combined amount. When you get both estimates then the combined amounts without LS should now be worth about £3.9K per year with another years increase.
Use all of your DBCBS which will probably be worth about £14K for your LS so as not to reduce your annual pension. If you take all of your LS from your pension you will not only get a much lower annual pension but also have to pay tax on your excess DBCBS when you get it.

FS ended 31st march 2008 and CSDB started from 1st Apr 2008 , and RMSPS are responsible up to 2012. So unless 2 blocks have vanished, 4 blocks must be handled by RMSPS and that would be 40% of the CSDB blocks.
"CSDB service blocks 1 April 2008 to 31st March 2019" 10 blocks (illustration 2019)
The figures below won't tally perfectly, but there is no way only 20% of my CSDB has been transferred to RMSPS, it is too big a hit of my NRA65 RMPP.
I have no idea how it worked out, but to me around 40% of my CSDB was transferred to my RMSPS from my illustration.
The 2019 illustration showed my CSDB pension at £3748 if I take 40% away for transferring to RMSPS that leaves £2248, if I then deduct 26% for taking it 5 years and 2 months early, it reduces to £1664 (it actually showns up on my final figures as £1751. So my NRA 65 (RMPP) is £1758 around 53% lower.
Yet although my NRA 60 showed in the illustration as £9675 (with 1% deduction for 2 months early) My quote was £11,211 (16% higher than my illustration figure) and min Lump of £33, 770 set against £29000 in the illustration. I can only presume this is because this includes some of my pension transferred from the CSDB blocks? and to add to that another £600 annual pension was also transferred with another £3463 lump sum. So my NRA 60 was £1536 a year more than expected and I also had £600 from my NRA65 transferred from RMPP? £1536 + £600 = £2136 more than I was expecting from the illustration. Whilst my NRA 65 RMPP was £1758 set against £2876 on illustration = minus £1118. I don't know for sure how it ended up like this, but I am of the opinion that 4 CSDB blocks (40%) have been transferred to RMSPS 2008 to 2012, leaving 2012 to 2018 with RMPP ie 6 years or 60% of the CSDB. It's the only way I can work it out.
I have had my final figures. And £1751 per year divided by 6 = £291 which sounds about right for each yearly CSDB block. It did my head in, trying to get my head around it and many think, they may be right that just two blocks are transferred, but FS ended in 2008 with CSDB starting from then and RMSPS being responsible up to 2012. See what I mean, when I say my head hurts.

Hawkey99 has already taken his NRA60, hence why 6 years of his NRA65 are with the RMPP and the other 2 are with the RMSPS.

[stephen500]

I wonder what % of your NRA 65 Capita hold in the RMSPS....

Any thoughts ???

2 of the 8 CSDB blocks you accrued from 2010 to 2018 are proper to RMSPS so it should be about 25% of the total. The RMPP have given you their part which should therefore be about 75% of the total. Your last annual illustration will not have split this part of the pension into RMSPS or RMPP and has just given you a combined amount. When you get both estimates then the combined amounts without LS should now be worth about £3.9K per year with another years increase.
Use all of your DBCBS which will probably be worth about £14K for your LS so as not to reduce your annual pension. If you take all of your LS from your pension you will not only get a much lower annual pension but also have to pay tax on your excess DBCBS when you get it.

FS ended 31st march 2008 and CSDB started from 1st Apr 2008 , and RMSPS are responsible up to 2012. So unless 2 blocks have vanished, 4 blocks must be handled by RMSPS and that would be 40% of the CSDB blocks.
"CSDB service blocks 1 April 2008 to 31st March 2019" 10 blocks (illustration 2019)
The figures below won't tally perfectly, but there is no way only 20% of my CSDB has been transferred to RMSPS, it is too big a hit of my NRA65 RMPP.
I have no idea how it worked out, but to me around 40% of my CSDB was transferred to my RMSPS from my illustration.
The 2019 illustration showed my CSDB pension at £3748 if I take 40% away for transferring to RMSPS that leaves £2248, if I then deduct 26% for taking it 5 years and 2 months early, it reduces to £1664 (it actually showns up on my final figures as £1751. So my NRA 65 (RMPP) is £1758 around 53% lower.
Yet although my NRA 60 showed in the illustration as £9675 (with 1% deduction for 2 months early) My quote was £11,211 (16% higher than my illustration figure) and min Lump of £33, 770 set against £29000 in the illustration. I can only presume this is because this includes some of my pension transferred from the CSDB blocks? and to add to that another £600 annual pension was also transferred with another £3463 lump sum. So my NRA 60 was £1536 a year more than expected and I also had £600 from my NRA65 transferred from RMPP? £1536 + £600 = £2136 more than I was expecting from the illustration. Whilst my NRA 65 RMPP was £1758 set against £2876 on illustration = minus £1118. I don't know for sure how it ended up like this, but I am of the opinion that 4 CSDB blocks (40%) have been transferred to RMSPS 2008 to 2012, leaving 2012 to 2018 with RMPP ie 6 years or 60% of the CSDB. It's the only way I can work it out.
I have had my final figures. And £1751 per year divided by 6 = £291 which sounds about right for each yearly CSDB block. It did my head in, trying to get my head around it and many think, they may be right that just two blocks are transferred, but FS ended in 2008 with CSDB starting from then and RMSPS being responsible up to 2012. See what I mean, when I say my head hurts.

Hawkey99 has already taken his NRA60, hence why 6 years of his NRA65 are with the RMPP and the other 2 are with the RMSPS.

Sorry for sounding so thick here, Robert T.
But aside from Hawkey99 I am right, am I not, that there are 10 blocks of CSDB 1st April 2008 to 3st March 2018 (that's what it says on my illustration for 2019.)
I am taking, as you know both NRA 60 and 65 at the same time.
I know RMSPS cover up to 2012.
So if CSDB started in 2008 and RMSPS deal with pensions up till 2012. Then they must deal with 40% of my CSDB blocks and RMPP 60% ie 4 years and 6 years.
I could see no other explaination for my much increased pension from RMSPS and much lower one from RMPP (DBCBS excepted).

[freespeech]

I wonder what % of your NRA 65 Capita hold in the RMSPS....

Any thoughts ???

2 of the 8 CSDB blocks you accrued from 2010 to 2018 are proper to RMSPS so it should be about 25% of the total. The RMPP have given you their part which should therefore be about 75% of the total. Your last annual illustration will not have split this part of the pension into RMSPS or RMPP and has just given you a combined amount. When you get both estimates then the combined amounts without LS should now be worth about £3.9K per year with another years increase.
Use all of your DBCBS which will probably be worth about £14K for your LS so as not to reduce your annual pension. If you take all of your LS from your pension you will not only get a much lower annual pension but also have to pay tax on your excess DBCBS when you get it.

FS ended 31st march 2008 and CSDB started from 1st Apr 2008 , and RMSPS are responsible up to 2012. So unless 2 blocks have vanished, 4 blocks must be handled by RMSPS and that would be 40% of the CSDB blocks.
"CSDB service blocks 1 April 2008 to 31st March 2019" 10 blocks (illustration 2019)
The figures below won't tally perfectly, but there is no way only 20% of my CSDB has been transferred to RMSPS, it is too big a hit of my NRA65 RMPP.
I have no idea how it worked out, but to me around 40% of my CSDB was transferred to my RMSPS from my illustration.
The 2019 illustration showed my CSDB pension at £3748 if I take 40% away for transferring to RMSPS that leaves £2248, if I then deduct 26% for taking it 5 years and 2 months early, it reduces to £1664 (it actually showns up on my final figures as £1751. So my NRA 65 (RMPP) is £1758 around 53% lower.
Yet although my NRA 60 showed in the illustration as £9675 (with 1% deduction for 2 months early) My quote was £11,211 (16% higher than my illustration figure) and min Lump of £33, 770 set against £29000 in the illustration. I can only presume this is because this includes some of my pension transferred from the CSDB blocks? and to add to that another £600 annual pension was also transferred with another £3463 lump sum. So my NRA 60 was £1536 a year more than expected and I also had £600 from my NRA65 transferred from RMPP? £1536 + £600 = £2136 more than I was expecting from the illustration. Whilst my NRA 65 RMPP was £1758 set against £2876 on illustration = minus £1118. I don't know for sure how it ended up like this, but I am of the opinion that 4 CSDB blocks (40%) have been transferred to RMSPS 2008 to 2012, leaving 2012 to 2018 with RMPP ie 6 years or 60% of the CSDB. It's the only way I can work it out.
I have had my final figures. And £1751 per year divided by 6 = £291 which sounds about right for each yearly CSDB block. It did my head in, trying to get my head around it and many think, they may be right that just two blocks are transferred, but FS ended in 2008 with CSDB starting from then and RMSPS being responsible up to 2012. See what I mean, when I say my head hurts.

Hawkey99 has already taken his NRA60, hence why 6 years of his NRA65 are with the RMPP and the other 2 are with the RMSPS.

Sorry for sounding so thick here, Robert T.
But aside from Hawkey99 I am right, am I not, that there are 10 blocks of CSDB 1st April 2008 to 3st March 2018 (that's what it says on my illustration for 2019.)
I am taking, as you know both NRA 60 and 65 at the same time.
I know RMSPS cover up to 2012.
So if CSDB started in 2008 and RMSPS deal with pensions up till 2012. Then they must deal with 40% of my CSDB blocks and RMPP 60% ie 4 years and 6 years.
I could see no other explaination for my much increased pension from RMSPS and much lower one from RMPP (DBCBS excepted).

That's my understanding......if you are taking both NRA60 & 65 at the same time then RMSPS will give you all your NRA60 benefits which is the entire final salary and 20% of your CSDB. On top of that they will also give you a further 20% which is the 2010-2012 element and part of NRA65. Separately RMPP will give you 60% (2012-18) of CSDB and all of the cash balance.

[RobertT]

Sorry for sounding so thick here, Robert T.
But aside from Hawkey99 I am right, am I not, that there are 10 blocks of CSDB 1st April 2008 to 3st March 2018 (that's what it says on my illustration for 2019.)
I am taking, as you know both NRA 60 and 65 at the same time.
I know RMSPS cover up to 2012.
So if CSDB started in 2008 and RMSPS deal with pensions up till 2012. Then they must deal with 40% of my CSDB blocks and RMPP 60% ie 4 years and 6 years.
I could see no other explaination for my much increased pension from RMSPS and much lower one from RMPP (DBCBS excepted).

Yes you're right.

That's my understanding......if you are taking both NRA60 & 65 at the same time then RMSPS will give you all your NRA60 benefits which is the entire final salary and 20% of your CSDB. On top of that they will also give you a further 20% which is the 2010-2012 element and part of NRA65. Separately RMPP will give you 60% (2012-18) of CSDB and all of the cash balance.

Some DBCBS is paid out by the RMPP with pre 2012 RMSPS benefits too, because the RMPP are also responsible for paying some inflationary increases on those pension benefits.
It's probably featured somewhere in that long thread of Stephen's?

[Hawkey99]

As Robert said i have taken my NRA 60.

So just to be clear do we think that the NRA 65 is divided as below

NRA 65 Pension

RMPP hold 60% of your NRA 65 Pension
RMSPS hold 40% of your NRA 65 Pension

[RobertT]

NRA65 relates to service between 2010-2018. So RMSPS holds 25% and RMPP 75%.