CWU have failed us.

[chelmsfordpostie]

Fish tank, you've totally missed the point. If we have a local issue that needs sorting we sort it locally. Al I'm asking is why don't you do the same . As for solidarity, be rest assured my office has been out in support of offices before and I daresay we will again in the future. What we don't expect is the whole country to fight an issue which is a local issue, if that office took action over their local be rest assured our office would give them 100% support.

[fishtank]

Fish tank, you've totally missed the point. If we have a local issue that needs sorting we sort it locally. Al I'm asking is why don't you do the same . As for solidarity, be rest assured my office has been out in support of offices before and I daresay we will again in the future. What we don't expect is the whole country to fight an issue which is a local issue, if that office took action over their local be rest assured our office would give them 100% support.

I've heard all that hyperbole before and usually it means offices in the same division but no further.
Our biggest failing over the last 5 years has been the assumption that bullying and harassment was a local issue,we have attempted to deal with it at local level and it has left our members disengaged and disillusioned.
We may pay the ultimate price for that stupidity.

This fight is taking exactly the same shape as the previous two where overall workplace issues were sidelined while certain other agendas were promoted.

The single biggest issue facing members in delivery in the majority of the country on a day to day basis is unachievable workload and the resultant bullying and harassment.
If you try to ballot them on pay,pensions and privatisation without in some way addressing that the ballot will most likely fail or return a weak majority.
The fact that it doesn't happen in your's or indeed my office is irrelevant.

[Shambles]

Fish tank, you've totally missed the point. If we have a local issue that needs sorting we sort it locally. Al I'm asking is why don't you do the same . As for solidarity, be rest assured my office has been out in support of offices before and I daresay we will again in the future. What we don't expect is the whole country to fight an issue which is a local issue, if that office took action over their local be rest assured our office would give them 100% support.

I've heard all that hyperbole before and usually it means offices in the same division but no further.
Our biggest failing over the last 5 years has been the assumption that bullying and harassment was a local issue,we have attempted to deal with it at local level and it has left our members disengaged and disillusioned.
We may pay the ultimate price for that stupidity.

This fight is taking exactly the same shape as the previous two where overall workplace issues were sidelined true while certain other agendas were promoted. true again

The single biggest issue facing members in delivery in the majority of the country on a day to day basis is unachievable workload and the resultant bullying and harassment. true again
If you try to ballot them on pay,pensions and privatisation without in some way addressing that the ballot will most likely fail or return a weak majority. personally I think a weak majority is Still a Majority
The fact that it doesn't happen in your's or indeed my office is irrelevant.

He's right

[chelmsfordpostie]

Fishtank, first of all don't draw assumptions about it only applying to our division and it all being hyperbole. You know nothing about my office.

What I do find laughable is someone slating hq for balloting the whole membership (not just deleveries) on issues that affect the whole membership but instead wants to ballot the whole membership on issues which yes are important but for whatever reason do not affect the whole membership.

I can see the reaction of those that aren't affected by those local issues now if we tell them 'we re not going to ballot on privatisation or pay, instead we re going to ballot on the full/part time split and bullying and harassment because we've got a lot of offices unable to sort them out.

I know which strategy I think will deliver the biggest yes vote, and ill give you a clue-is not yors.

[Cut Off King]

The single biggest issue facing members in delivery in the majority of the country on a day to day basis is unachievable workload and the resultant bullying and harassment.

Problem is, last time we were balloted we were told all these issues were delt with in the BT2010 agreement.

So telling the membership to trust the CWU who will "sort these issues in a new agreement", well, good luck with that one.

Most people I know have already accepted the fact that they only have a job for the next 3-5 years within RM and are thinking about where to work after.

The CWU oversold the last agreement and now that is having an effect upon how members will vote.

[fishtank]

Fishtank, first of all don't draw assumptions about it only applying to our division and it all being hyperbole. You know nothing about my office.

Why not,you started with the wrong assumption that my office was weak.

What I do find laughable is someone slating hq for balloting the whole membership (not just deleveries) on issues that affect the whole membership but instead wants to ballot the whole membership on issues which yes are important but for whatever reason do not affect the whole membership.

I didn't ask for a ballot on separate issues.
I said those issues need to be addressed within a national ballot.

I can see the reaction of those that aren't affected by those local issues now if we tell them 'we re not going to ballot on privatisation or pay, instead we re going to ballot on the full/part time split and bullying and harassment because we've got a lot of offices unable to sort them out.

And I can see the reaction of members in delivery offices up and down the country when they realise that the issues that directly affect them on a day to day basis are not being addressed.

I know which strategy I think will deliver the biggest yes vote, and ill give you a clue-is not yours.

I think a strategy that aims to deal with all of the problems facing all of the members would deliver the biggest yes vote.
I'm surprised you don't.
It's not rocket science.

[chelmsfordpostie]

Fish tank, lets get one thing straight, I never said your office was weak , I asked a simple question which was why your office wasn't sorting out an issue that was ultimately a local issue, locally. Where did I say it was weak, I don't know your office so haven't got a clue as to whether its weak or not.

As for those issues being included in a national ballot, on how many issues should we be balloted 3, 5 , maybe 10 ?. We've got three issues that affect the whole membership, why cloud it with even more.

No I don't think including every single issue we have in a national ballot will deliver the biggest yes vote, I think it confuses people and puts people off. We have three issues , major issues that affect everyone , that is enough for any ballot. There's nothing to stop those local ballots you mentioned before running alongside the three major issues, we ve done that before.

I just get the impression that there are certain people on here that will find anything they can to have a pop at hq for and will never be happy with what they come up with. Personally I think they've f****d up on a lot of things but not on this.

[LinChong]

Management want a no strike agreement.

They are not going to get it.

This fight is going to get dirty. Reps will be targeted in the usual way. Management favourites will raise bullying and harassment complaints against individual reps. Any rep who gets suspended needs to inform everyone on here so that help can be provided before the fact finding interview. Disciplinary hearings that are unfair must not go ahead. All members need to be warned that management will be trying to turn members against their reps.

Vulnerable reps need to be visited and assured that the CWU will back them all the way. We need a task force of activists who have beaten off management attacks who can give advice in person or over the phone to reps as soon as they are attacked. This task force needs to have freedom to roam and be independent of branches.

Reps should be prepared for the attack that is coming. Anyone who is not up for the fight should resign and let a fighter take their place. Members need to know that a no strike agreement will mean zero hour contracts on minimum wage. It would have been better after the next election but the line has been drawn now.

[chelmsfordpostie]

Linchong, spot on mate. I would much rather be debating how we get ready for the battle ahead rather than debating the reasons why we're going into battle. I know what's the most important one to me.

[fishtank]

We've got three issues that affect the whole membership.

What you have are three issues,not all of them affecting the whole membership.

Pay.
To be honest that's a red herring,the membership would probably accept the 8.4% on the table if there were no strings so pay isn't really about pay it's about what comes with it and HQ is not very forthcoming on what would be acceptable strings.
The membership want no strings but if there's ever been a 3 year pay deal that didn't have some strings I haven't seen it yet.
If you asked the membership how high they rate pay on the scale of problems in this job it would rate somewhere below the price of coffee.Everyone wants a pay rise but that doesn't mean they'll strike for it.

Pensions.
A major issue for some,not for everybody,some it doesn't directly affect at all,What is the union's line in the sand over pensions?
No change,some change but mitigate the damage or decouple it entirely and kick it into the long grass?
We've been burned badly before on this issue,If push comes to shove will the part-timer with a crappy DC pension be prepared to lose money to protect the pension of the guy standing next to him knowing that it was the union's capitulation over pensions in 2008 that led to his crappy DC pension?

Protection
This is probably the most vague of all the issues because as yet we don't know again where the line in the sand is,what terms will be protected,how long for or even how legal,legal will be.
I'm afraid if Royal Mail are offering three years and the union expect members to strike for say an extra year or two that's not going to fly.
Unless you're 3-5 years from retirement or you have an escape plan 3 years or 5 years still means you're screwed.

So on balance your three solid issues that affect the whole membership start to look a little shaky.
I'm not saying this to undermine the union,I'll be at the gate over any of those issues and so will my members but this ballot is not about you or me it's about engaging the membership across the whole country,a membership that in a lot of cases has been let down by poor local,area and national representation for the best part of four years.

The way members are treated in offices up and down the country by our employer is a national issue,in fact it's a national disgrace.
If the union attempts to sweep that under the carpet citing weak offices yet again and fails to address the national issues of bullying and harassment and full-time/part-time ratios which I might remind you are both covered by national agreements then the ballot and strike will ultimately crumble.

[Danelectro]

As long as its BSI/performance level office by office then its likely to be as you were with weak and strong areas and a myriad of interpretations.They let the cat out of the bag with the varying performance levels and that to me is part of whats driving B&H and H&S issues.My office has a false performance level due to a high percentage of early starters,Im sure if more started later then harassment in the office would increase and its not exactly absent now.

If for arguments sake we do get an acceptable deal on job protection then what kind of new delivery model will be agreed.Theres been little info on what working for Royal Mail would look like in the future-even longer deliverys? driver only duties? Increased efficiency/flexi time? The driver issue with P&L made a mockery of seniority with drivers just in the door having more choice of duties than a non driver with lengthy service and that pissed off more than a few members.If more drivers are a necessity then free driving lessons should be on offer.

[chelmsfordpostie]

Fishtank, whatever, to be honest it's getting a bit boring and going round and round in circles. You carry on picking holes in the ballot, personally I'd rather concentrate on us delivering a yes vote and planning for the battle. By all means spend your days moaning about what we're balloting over, I'd rather spend my time convincing my workmates to vote yes.

In three weeks time we'll see if headquarters or you was right when we get the ballot result.

[fishtank]

You carry on picking holes in the ballot, personally I'd rather concentrate on us delivering a yes vote and planning for the battle.

You're not concentrating on delivering a yes vote nationally though,you're thinking about what would deliver a yes vote in your area.
That's fine but reps around the country have a much harder task than you,they have to try to deliver a yes vote in offices with 50/50 splits or even less,in places where area and branch representation is poor in offices that have been screwed over by delivery revisions,where B&H is a daily battle.
You can talk the talk but could you walk the walk in one of those offices?
Planning for the battle is piss easy..once you have a mandate to go to war.

[Shambles]

We've got three issues that affect the whole membership.

What you have are three issues,not all of them affecting the whole membership.

Pay.
To be honest that's a red herring,the membership would probably accept the 8.4% on the table if there were no strings so pay isn't really about pay it's about what comes with it and HQ is not very forthcoming on what would be acceptable strings.
The membership want no strings but if there's ever been a 3 year pay deal that didn't have some strings I haven't seen it yet.
If you asked the membership how high they rate pay on the scale of problems in this job it would rate somewhere below the price of coffee.Everyone wants a pay rise but that doesn't mean they'll strike for it.

Pensions.
A major issue for some,not for everybody,some it doesn't directly affect at all,What is the union's line in the sand over pensions?
No change,some change but mitigate the damage or decouple it entirely and kick it into the long grass?
We've been burned badly before on this issue,If push comes to shove will the part-timer with a crappy DC pension be prepared to lose money to protect the pension of the guy standing next to him knowing that it was the union's capitulation over pensions in 2008 that led to his crappy DC pension?

Protection
This is probably the most vague of all the issues because as yet we don't know again where the line in the sand is,what terms will be protected,how long for or even how legal,legal will be.
I'm afraid if Royal Mail are offering three years and the union expect members to strike for say an extra year or two that's not going to fly.
Unless you're 3-5 years from retirement or you have an escape plan 3 years or 5 years still means you're screwed.

So on balance your three solid issues that affect the whole membership start to look a little shaky.
I'm not saying this to undermine the union,I'll be at the gate over any of those issues and so will my members but this ballot is not about you or me it's about engaging the membership across the whole country,a membership that in a lot of cases has been let down by poor local,area and national representation for the best part of four years.

The way members are treated in offices up and down the country by our employer is a national issue,in fact it's a national disgrace.
If the union attempts to sweep that under the carpet citing weak offices yet again and fails to address the national issues of bullying and harassment and full-time/part-time ratios which I might remind you are both covered by national agreements then the ballot and strike will ultimately crumble.

Nail and head springs to mind...

Well said

[chelmsfordpostie]

Fishtank, quite obviously , as ill only be speaking to people in my area and not a postie 100 mies away , I'll be concentrating on getting a yes vote in my area. Very similar to what you'll be doing , surely ?.