Accepting shares means they can sack you whenever they like

Visionary Man · Post by **Visionary Man** » 13 Jul 2013, 06:32

Hi I'm new to RM Chat. I have come on specifically to discuss this issue that I discovered yesterday.

Is everyone aware of the Growth and Infrastructure Act 2013 section 31? It amends section 205 of the Employment Rights Act 1996 and it seems to indicate that acceptance of the offer of our shares will heavily alter and diminish your employee rights.
Including:

(2)An employee who is an employee shareholder does not have—
(a)the right to make an application under section 63D (request to undertake study or training),
(b)the right to make an application under section 80F (request for flexible working),
(c)the right under section 94 not to be unfairly dismissed, or
(d)the right under section 135 to a redundancy payment.

Is everyone aware of this? Is everyone *going* to be made aware of this? If not it seems deceitful to make an offer of "free" shares when actually there's a cost in legal rights.

I look forward to any comments.

Best Regards

Geoff

Visionary Man · Post by **Visionary Man** » 13 Jul 2013, 06:45

Basically it means they can sack you whenever they like.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/201 ... 31/enacted" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Visionary Man · Post by **Visionary Man** » 13 Jul 2013, 06:49

This is my second post but i figured I didn't do a punchy enough title.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/201 ... 31/enacted" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If you take the shares you lose your rights to unfair dismissal and redundancy and many others.

I really want everyone to be made aware of this.

Geoff

Visionary Man · Post by **Visionary Man** » 13 Jul 2013, 06:52

Check this out. This is enacted. Accepting the shares will affect your employee rights.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/201 ... 31/enacted" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Best Regards

Geoff Connett

mootsa · Post by **mootsa** » 13 Jul 2013, 09:24

Does this mean we
are able to individually refuse the shares, keeping our terms and conditions intact?

Post by **baldrick** » 13 Jul 2013, 09:48

Thanks Geoff. I hope all those who are going on about their 'free' shares read this. Too many just have £££ signs in their eyes.

Post by **baldrick** » 13 Jul 2013, 09:49

If this is correct the CWU need to make everyone aware of this.

fishtank · Post by **fishtank** » 13 Jul 2013, 10:25

It doesn't apply to us.
It's designed primarily for new employees entering into contracts with relatively new company start ups.
It's something to keep an eye on but not really a threat.

Royal Mail are not proposing to use the "shares for rights" legislation,I'm not sure if legally they could even if they wanted to,we are not choosing to be shareholders.

The "shares for rights" law has fallen flat as employers are just as uninterested in it as employees.
Who wants to go through all the hassle of issuing shares to someone,paying for their independent financial advice and then seeing them leave after a week?

A business(ours apart probably) who encourages employee ownership is not usually the kind of company who wants to employ people on substandard terms and conditions anyway,It's counter intuitive to promote loyalty on one hand and reduce job security on the other.

I also fully expect this legislation to be challenged in the European Courts at some point and found to be unlawful..

Post by **TrueBlueTerrier** » 13 Jul 2013, 11:38

Visionary Man wrote:Hi I'm new to RM Chat. I have come on specifically to discuss this issue that I discovered yesterday.

Is everyone aware of the Growth and Infrastructure Act 2013 section 31? It amends section 205 of the Employment Rights Act 1996

Yep - we had a thread when it came out.

http://www.royalmailchat.co.uk/communit ... 38&t=48361" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; "Shares for Rights" proposal : a trick or a treat?

http://www.royalmailchat.co.uk/communit ... 18&t=51673" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Lords ditch shares-for-rights proposals:

Thanks for posting though - its good to debate - BTW to avoid confusion I have merged all 3 threads and changed the title of the 1st one to your more punchy title.

Visionary Man · Post by **Visionary Man** » 13 Jul 2013, 13:28

TrueBlueTerrier

The thing is... that legislation I posted has gone through Lords and has Royal Assent. I believe it comes into effect on Sep 1st? The section that is relevant is 31 not 27.

I couldn't find anything that says the Lords stopped clause 31. Only information saying that they forced the government to include the offer of legal advice with the share offers.

Best Regards Geoff

Post by **TrueBlueTerrier** » 13 Jul 2013, 13:51

If I remember correctly part of the legislation makes the company making the offer pay for the employee to get legal advice if so it could be very expensive for Royal Mail if all 150,000 of us enacted that clause.

Also I have an inkling that this act only applies if its voluntary, as the shares will be imposed/given that may mean we do not come under this act. Still it needs clarification and I have emailed CWU HQ, and posted a comment on FaceBook.

Post by **kingtubby** » 13 Jul 2013, 14:04

It's notable that the RM £2000 'offer' is equal to the minimum as laid out in the legislation.

@mootsa. At the end of Section 31 as previously linked:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/201 ... 31/enacted" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

under "47G Employee shareholder status" and "104G Employee shareholder status"

it appears to offer a safeguard for those who refuse to take up the offer of shares.

Visionary Man · Post by **Visionary Man** » 14 Jul 2013, 05:23

Doesn't the HELP line count as the legal advice?

(1)An individual who is or becomes an employee of a company is an “employee shareholder” if—

(a)the company and the individual agree that the individual is to be an employee shareholder,
(b)in consideration of that agreement, the company issues or allots to the individual fully paid up shares in the company, or procures the issue or allotment to the individual of fully paid up shares in its parent undertaking, which have a value, on the day of issue or allotment, of no less than £2,000,
(c)the company gives the individual a written statement of the particulars of the status of employee shareholder and of the rights which attach to the shares referred to in paragraph (b) (“the employee shares”) (see subsection (5)), and
(d)the individual gives no consideration other than by entering into the agreement.

Subsection 1 here seems to suggest you are counted under the legislation just by acceptance.

Geoff

Visionary Man · Post by **Visionary Man** » 14 Jul 2013, 05:28

The only official information on the shares I have seen was a two sided piece of A4 paper on which they specifically stated that "You are not obligated to accept your free shares".

I am taking it that if the HELP line counts as the relevant legal advice provision then they are intending not inform staff directly of their altering legal position.

If they don't make it clear I will be very disappointed.

Best Regards

Geoff

Post by **kingtubby** » 14 Jul 2013, 17:46

Visionary Man wrote:If they don't make it clear I will be very disappointed.

The CWU really ought to be all over this if it's as big a threat as it appears.

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