LTB 455/12 - Colleagueshare/New Incentive Arrangements

[Martin Walsh]

it is very easy to abuse someone on the Internet, I tell you the facts about Dave and believe me he has bottle.

Dave has been suspended when he was a local rep , he was facing the sack and Alan Johnson saved his job for fighting for the members he represented, he has been in the high court and Royal Mail tried to get some customers to claim damages for taking unoffical action from him personally.

He has called more national ballots then any other national officers of this union 3 in the last 9 years. There have only been 3 previously Dras in 1988 , the employee agenda dispute in 1996 and the pay dispute in 1971.

However the reason for the ballots is that Royal Mail have faced more changes in the last 9 years of his leadership then the previous 100 years.

Now asI keep saying it is very easy to shout from the sidelines who don't have to face the reality of these changes and think the union has a veto on things like Door to Door into workload , introducing absorption when their is time in duties , introducing CDVs and walk sequencing , stopping Royal Mail sweating the assets by selling property and closing mail centres and RDCs which have been hit harder then delivery offices by DSA where now 50% of the work no longer comes into the the outward operation and the single sort plan helps reduce mail centres .

I believe the CWU is a broad church and anyone is welcome to stand for a postion providing they have the support f their Branch membership. However I would hazard a guess that if you stand wanting to change the whole of the CWU but you have allowed Royal Mail to stich up your own office without a fight then your not going to really get the support of the wider membership if you have surrendered your terms and conditions within your unit to Royal Mail without a fight.

[The wanderer]

Good answer, thanks for posting.

Do people still have actual union meetings in their centres where they get together in a group and discuss things or is this a thing of the past?

You know meetings in the canteen, cloak room, on the floor, etc where a branch member will come down and explain what they know.

We haven't had one for years.

I guess people slag the union off because a) it has become a sort of culture now, possibly encouraged by management as some sort of divide and rule and b) we are all scared of losing our jobs.

I do think without a union we would be a lot worse off but it is our union and we should be allowed to criticize it.

It is however nice to know that Cuddly Dave has a pair.

[Martin Walsh]

Yes kitchen or canteen meetings still go on in many places and I think that is a key principle for if an office is strong union wise.

I think sadly a lot of local , area and Divisonal reps have lost the habit of meeting the members which is not good and has to change.

I personally love meeting the members as sometimes they do let of a bit of steam but providing you explain things and you are up for helping them they are as good as gold. I don't see what some on here keeping saying that the CWU is finished otherwise why would people want the CWU to address their issues.

Look I think we need to improve representation in some places and training. The key to this union has always been that Branch's should support local offices as that local reps should ensure that members stand together and ensure that management abide by national agreements. Sadly it would seem that several revisons have been introduced without anything being put down in the form of an agreement which is disturbing.

[dvbuk55]

I notice dingo always sings the praise of DW but Billy is seldom mentioned. I just calculated that the 48 quid I would be getting every year, old Billy managed to bag 29,000 in one go, which will take me 604 years to accumulate. Just wonder how difficult it would take to negotiate a similar deal for members, you know 20 years service @ a week per year would equal a fair lump sum - not 29000 quid of course because we don't earn 100,000 a year but then does he?

As for cuddly Dave - the seat on the board beckons I'm afraid, as for the rest of us joining the union glitterati - you need a union structure in the area you work that has meetings and elections and would that solve the shambles that is now the CWU - maybe in 30 years.

When the union was strong, at the time dingo is demonstrating the militancy DW showed in the past - that's exactly what it is - history, which bears not one iota of relevance to today.

[General Mannerheim]

I just calculated that the 48 quid I would be getting every year, old Billy managed to bag 29,000 in one go, which will take me 604 years to accumulate.

Well it would probably take Dingo and the CWU HQ that long to admit that the BT2010 wasn't quite `The Deal of The Century.`

[fishtank]

I felt that DW lost a great deal of credibility on the steps of Congress House in Nov 2009.
It was his "peace in our time" moment and Higson made a fool of him by stating that the pension issues could not form any part of the negotiations.
Since then i've felt that his head has been turned by a CEO who is an expert in manipulating people,bringing them "on board" and making them feel included and important.. stroking the dog with her right hand while she puts on the leash with the left.
Watching CWUTV or whatever it's called is difficult to stomach,being preached to on the need for change "at pace" and see the big picture by a union leader while management continue to use aggressive tactics to increase workload beyond what's reasonable and strip hours from the business is too much for me.

If we go back to the colleagueshares and the fact that they were a con.
Yes they were...but it was a con that was paying out...until Moya arrived on the scene.
She is a dangerous opponent,much more so than the incompetent but predictable Crozier...but some at HQ appear smitten.

[dvbuk55]

Looking at some of the posts on here about the virtues of the CWU leadership it's apparent that "stroking the dog" and manipulation isn't just the preserve of RM management - give a dog a sniff of inclusion and the next thing you know he's snuffling the crotch.

Lets face it, the promise of a seat on the board must be a powerful aphrodisiac for the likes of some - it would probably mean a vacancy at HQ I just wonder if the promised inclusion on the board doesn't materialise if the wunderkinder will suddenly discover a new militancy hitherto unknown in recent years.

[Martin Walsh]

Dvbuk Billy is the General secretary if the union and deals with Politcal issues and many other things but does not negotiate on members terms and conditions and had no part in either the pay and mod agreement or the business transformation agreement.

The question I would like answered is if the office you work in is so bad what have you and your fellow members done to change things ? Have you sought help form your area rep , have you demanded a ballot , have you wrote to Dave or Bob Gibson and your Divisonal reps. it is easy to say your office is being stitched up when you are being anonymous on this site but I know a pec members who responded to a members letter who claimed his office had been stitched up but when he went to the office to meet the members it turned out that the member who wrote was one of only 3 members who voted no to the revison and the rest of the members had voted yes and were happy with the revision.

The union rules allow for any office or Branch to request an industrial ballot and if your office is in such a bad way why are there not more requests as you will get support from the national union.

Dvbuk don't believe everything you read on this site. The CWU are having an opened debate which will be subject to a future policy briefing on the pro and cons of a new governance model. Not because we intend to surrender to Royal Mail or get into bed with them either.

But in case you forgot the chances are Royal Mail are due to sold sometime in 2014 and unless we have a bigger share of the ownership the employees will have 10% of the shares and are due a seat on the board.

Now Unite will definitely accept that seat and will then be able to speak on behalf of all staff on the board if the CWU refuse to accept a seat.

Now the CWU are on one hand opposing the sale off but also saying the employee share should be higher than 10 %.

Now I have never supported partnership and always opposed moving away from being independent union. However both Jersey Nd Gurnsey have a seat on a board and they say it has worked in getting them a bigger share of the cake.

Now why would any union not consider a chance to have a seat which helps to shape the direction of the company in line with our union polices and then have the right to negotiate on ant changes as well.

I am not yet convinced on the idea generally but the union has been tasked to get the terms of what might be on offer and then put that to Branch's and members at a policy briefing.

[fishtank]

Now why would any union not consider a chance to have a seat which helps to shape the direction of the company in line with our union polices and then have the right to negotiate on ant changes as well.

We have the right to negotiate on changes and shape the direction of the company....it comes from standing up to the company and refusing to accept it any other way,that's how a union wins influence,it does not beg for influence as a junior partner in the boardroom.
The CMA do not have that,of course they would grab at a seat on the board but they won't represent me in the same way that a CWU National Officer on the board won't either.
I'm a union member...i don't sponsor board members.

By jumping onto the board the union will be admitting that they cannot influence company policy as a union,that we are impotent,that we need an inside man...it will finish the CWU...it will certainly finish the CWU for me.
The conflict of interest is obvious...and dangerous.
We are talking about the entire future of the CWU gambled on the throw of the dice.
It is madness.

[Himaggen]

By jumping onto the board the union will be admitting that they cannot influence company policy as a union,that we are impotent,that we need an inside man...it will finish the CWU...it will certainly finish the CWU for me.
The conflict of interest is obvious...and dangerous.
We are talking about the entire future of the CWU gambled on the throw of the dice.
It is madness.

I couldn't agree more…

…and on top of that how much influence do you really think 10% buys you?

[The wanderer]

So that's it then.

Royal mail will be privatised, all employees will be offered shares, Dave Ward will get a seat on the board as a representative of the employees who are share holders, it might happen.

At the end of the day if and when the business is privatised we will be given a choice of shares or industrial action.

I wonder how much the workforce will be offered to allow the sale to go through peacefully.

£1000 worth of shares, £2000, unfortunately after the colleague share debacle the workforce is not too trusting of share offers anymore.

Industrial action, I would be very surpised to see it happen, but then if members are really pushed against the wall who knows.

I can definitely see a seat on the board as an option though.

[dvbuk55]

I'm not going to bother with most of the ramblings but if the members are to receive 10% in shares and a seat on the board - why not make it a straight ballot for ANY member to take up the seat - surely he/she is as representative of the membership, and probably with less bias, than a member of the union leadership?

[dvbuk55]

By jumping onto the board the union will be admitting that they cannot influence company policy as a union,that we are impotent,that we need an inside man...it will finish the CWU...it will certainly finish the CWU for me.
The conflict of interest is obvious...and dangerous.
We are talking about the entire future of the CWU gambled on the throw of the dice.
It is madness.

I couldn't agree more…

…and on top of that how much influence do you really think 10% buys you?

A seat on the board will have even less inflence than the CWU has at present with this leadership against RM management. The problem with the union is they have no strategy to deal with RM other than to appear to be involved and to be able to carry the workforce along with the same pretence - "Joint Statement this" and "Joint Statement that" as though they have had some influence in the future, followed with yet another LTB with RMs instructions as to what we are doing next.

[fishtank]

It's an interesting question,the whole shares thing.
First of all members are unlikely to receive shares they can actually sell,the plan is that staff would hold a minimum 10% pot in perpetuity,if they could sell them it would dilute the pot and make the whole employee ownership thing last about 6 months.
It's much more likely that members will receive a "phantom " share certificate and be paid a dividend if the company made a profit...so to all intents and purposes an individual member won't own anything.

Secondly ALL members of staff will be entitled to "shares" whether they are in the union or not so the legal position on whether an elected CWU official can speak on their behalf is unclear.
If they are voting shares then any decision our nominee took on our behalf would need the consensus of the entire shareholding "pot"....members and non-members.
Any board member the pot decided to nominate would also probable have to carry the support of the majority of the entire allocation.
It's not as straightforward as some at HQ believe.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

To me a member of the Union on the Board is a direct conflict of interests.

Unions are there to protect the interests of its members.

The Board is there to protect the interests of the shareholders/business.

What happens when the 2 interest are directly polar to each other - will the Unions Board member be compromised.

What happens for instance if the board decide that compulsory redundancies will happen, will they keep that decision secret from the Union member (thereby negating any perceived value to the Union) or will they be sworn to secrecy and then have to make a decision based on their own conscience.

Far too many pitfalls for me, and no gain in effective representation of members interests and little chance in determining the direction of Royal Mail above and beyond what we get already.

If its a quest for getting influence in the direction of the company then why as a democratic union and a mass movement would we concentrate all that power in one, or a few members of the Union on a board. I certainly can't see RM waiting for a ballot to take place on every board decision, and if they don't, then, to me it seems an anathema to Union values to even consider this.