UPDATE ON NATIONAL TALKS

[dvbuk55]

Well it's not looking too good really. If there was any good news I'm sure it would have been trumpeted from the highest rooftops by now. So I suppose we can wait until tomorrow for the "because some progress has been made (non-specific as usual) it has been decided to proceed with anything and everything that will facilitate the BT 2010 Agreement (regardless of the cost to the membership). Of course I could be wrong and it may be an overwhelming rejection of continuing with a failed agreement and demand a new set of proposals which actually will work and give due reward

[Cut Off King]

Well it's not looking too good really. If there was any good news I'm sure it would have been trumpeted from the highest rooftops by now. So I suppose we can wait until tomorrow for the "because some progress has been made (non-specific as usual) it has been decided to proceed with anything and everything that will facilitate the BT 2010 Agreement (regardless of the cost to the membership). Of course I could be wrong and it may be an overwhelming rejection of continuing with a failed agreement and demand a new set of proposals which actually will work and give due reward

Lets not be to fast to judge, my sources tell me that Billy has secured a 45 hour week in exchange for a GREGS "all you can eat in an hour" voucher, not so smug now, are we!

[dvbuk55]

Well it's not looking too good really. If there was any good news I'm sure it would have been trumpeted from the highest rooftops by now. So I suppose we can wait until tomorrow for the "because some progress has been made (non-specific as usual) it has been decided to proceed with anything and everything that will facilitate the BT 2010 Agreement (regardless of the cost to the membership). Of course I could be wrong and it may be an overwhelming rejection of continuing with a failed agreement and demand a new set of proposals which actually will work and give due reward

Lets not be to fast to judge, my sources tell me that Billy has secured a 45 hour week in exchange for a GREGS "all you can eat in an hour" voucher, not so smug now, are we!

I must say COK, you have truly humbled me, I am not worthy...................what if I'm on a diet though?

[bunkerland]

Well it's not looking too good really. If there was any good news I'm sure it would have been trumpeted from the highest rooftops by now. So I suppose we can wait until tomorrow for the "because some progress has been made (non-specific as usual) it has been decided to proceed with anything and everything that will facilitate the BT 2010 Agreement (regardless of the cost to the membership). Of course I could be wrong and it may be an overwhelming rejection of continuing with a failed agreement and demand a new set of proposals which actually will work and give due reward

Lets not be to fast to judge, my sources tell me that Billy has secured a 45 hour week in exchange for a GREGS "all you can eat in an hour" voucher, not so smug now, are we!

I must say COK, you have truly humbled me, I am not worthy...................what if I'm on a diet though?

Unlucky ................there's always winners and losers in any cwu deal Dv,you should know that by now!

[dvbuk55]

Well it's not looking too good really. If there was any good news I'm sure it would have been trumpeted from the highest rooftops by now. So I suppose we can wait until tomorrow for the "because some progress has been made (non-specific as usual) it has been decided to proceed with anything and everything that will facilitate the BT 2010 Agreement (regardless of the cost to the membership). Of course I could be wrong and it may be an overwhelming rejection of continuing with a failed agreement and demand a new set of proposals which actually will work and give due reward

Lets not be to fast to judge, my sources tell me that Billy has secured a 45 hour week in exchange for a GREGS "all you can eat in an hour" voucher, not so smug now, are we!

I must say COK, you have truly humbled me, I am not worthy...................what if I'm on a diet though?

Unlucky ................there's always winners and losers in any cwu deal Dv,you should know that by now!

Yes - I had forgotten - I may have to come off the diet now, get obese and be sacked for failing to maintain standards

[Martin Walsh]

Phatom I know I should not bite but lets have a look at your list of things you say the union gave up which in itself is not factual.

First Saturday premium for those of you who did not know is that we used to get a little over £2 premiumn when you work on Saturdays. This premiumn was only paid when you work on duty on a saturday. The union convinced Royal Mail to put the sum of this money into basic pay. As much as I opposed the Way forward basic pay went up from £201 to £238 in one move. Yes UPAP was consoldiated into basic pay along with such things as improved holiday pay , driving allowance , NDA , double time on saturdays etc. But remember you got you basic pay 52 weeks per year and your whole pay was then pensionable.

Now the PHG grade did go , but every PHG kept the diffeential in pay and kept their UPAP payment on top. Even now there are exPHGs who recieve appoxmately 20% more on shift allowance , overtime etc on a reserved rights basis. Equally there are just as many postmen and women working in what would have been prior to the way forward PHG work.

Driving allowance. There are many drivers who still recieve £6 reserve payment even if they dont now drive. Eqaully the way forward agreed a new allowance which meant many drivers suddenly went from being paid an allowance every time they drove to the £23 new allowance whcih was paid 52 weeks per year.

I have been in the job for over 27 years and can remember when all over time over 12 hours was double time. But the reality is over time is not at the same level as it was in delivery offices and mail centres 11 years ago and it was the right move to put that into basic pay.

Again I have been in the job long enough to remember when households were considered as totally ilrelvant and spare staff and reserves did them unless the official walk holder wanted them. It is also bizzare that we used to have a yearly motion calling for the union to pull out of the door to door agreement including the payment. Now it is true that some people did not lose out on door to door but the question is would Royal Mail have continued to pay the unit payment moving forward as they indicated they could not sustain the product with the lack of ability to grow or improve quality.

The second delivery going. Well lets be totally honest here , the majoirity of offices did not have streaming agreements and took everything out on the first delivery in fact we had over 90% of the mail going on the first delivery which was scheduled to be completed by 0930 but was not being adhered too. The reality is that those offices who did not stream the mail so they had enough to warrent 1 over 1 second deliveries then they were getting more part timers introduced and some offices had for every first delivery they had 5 second deliveries. Now most people believed we made the right move to go to one delivery and the deal included an increase of £26.28 and a five day week for the first time.

The ending of the final salary scheme . I do think we should have fought harder on this issue. But the pressure on pensions is massive and even if we had kept the final salary we would still have a challenge to keep it after next year. However you have remember all of our past service up to 2008 will still be based on your final salary when you retire. The other issue is that the Care Scheme is currently performing well and has the advantage of not forcing people to go on nights torwards their last few years to improve their pension. As the care scheme builds up a yearly pot and can include lump sums into its calculations.

The ending of job and knock , well it was the CWU who got it written into the agreement in 2003 but how can a union jusitfy keeping on saying to management we want to improve members terms and conditions but we all want staff to be able to work less hours as they happen to finish their delivery earlier. It becomes a very differcult arguement to work. Like the old shorter working week union meeting where you say we want to get a 35 hour shorter working week for every one and some shouts I am not working 35 hours for anyone.

The list of benefits and safeguards the union has got is endless. Basic pay has improved , paid meal reliefs are still there , annual leave entitlements are up there with the best in the business , bank holiday payments , shift allowances , driving allowances , TPM allowances , Leadership allowances , Scottish distant island payment , London Weighting payments , RRIS payments , Time Bonus payment , PBS bonus , Christmas bonus payment , lump sum payments , Reserved rghts payments , Supplements for delivery , mail centres and distributions , Professional drivers pay , agreed pay arrangements , harmonsation of part time employees well ahead of the law , conduct code procedure which is acas improved , an attendance procudres which allows for an employer to go through 3 stages before dismissal , ill health retirement procedure , harrassment procedures agreements , grievence procedure. National agreements which restrict what Royal Mail wish to do. Sunday over time arrangements , over time arrangements and SA. The list is endless all the things people comlain the union has lost was gained by the union and then it then believed that the time had come to negotiate something different.

[Union Man]

All we want to know is what has happened at the crunch talks?I this toooooo much to ask for?I think not.Havn@t heard from brother Ward an co for a long time,just need to know they are still there,while fending off nonsense BSI requests from a rabid Management.Is ther any one there?

[fishtank]

bank holiday payments , shift allowances , driving allowances , TPM allowances , Leadership allowances , Scottish distant island payment , London Weighting payments , RRIS payments , Time Bonus payment , PBS bonus , Christmas bonus payment , lump sum payments , Reserved rghts payments , Supplements for delivery , mail centres and distributions , Professional drivers pay , agreed pay arrangements , harmonsation of part time employees well ahead of the law , conduct code procedure which is acas improved , an attendance procudres which allows for an employer to go through 3 stages before dismissal , ill health retirement procedure , harrassment procedures agreements , grievence procedure. National agreements which restrict what Royal Mail wish to do. Sunday over time arrangements , over time arrangements and SA.

It's an impressive list dingo and we should be rightly proud....but every one of those victories is a past victory and most are from the dim and distant past.
I think members have a right to judge the union not only on past victories but also on present performance and i don't think many will say our terms and conditions have moved forward in the last 5 years...maybe longer.
Partly that may be down to current employment conditions and partly down to the overall state of the business but some of it at least is down to...other issues.

[Martin Walsh]

All we want to know is what has happened at the crunch talks?I this toooooo much to ask for?I think not.Havn@t heard from brother Ward an co for a long time,just need to know they are still there,while fending off nonsense BSI requests from a rabid Management.Is ther any one there?

To be fair union mate there was an LTB published before Christmas and an update las week on the talks progress. There was a meeting yesterday of the PEC but I think Dave and Billy had to go and meet ED Davey on the wider issues.

I have made my views clear there should be a national briefing to inform branch`s and reps of what is happening in the talks. I know that flow is still causing a problem and that Rob Jenson still has not sent out the words on the 100BSI , model week and resourcing.

[Union Man]

You Know this because you seem to be in the loop.I am not .So any LTB i may have read have no Meat on The Bones so to speak.So when fending off Managment I am desperatley waiting for a difinitve answer on the BSI question,for everthing that flows from this misuse of a standardised set of standards i.e. the crushing strength of a concrete cube has a set value of xNewtons,yet i dare to say where is the established standard for a human beings ability to work.Are RM confusing a set of standards with the vague application of 100 0/0 effort which is something totally different. I NEED TO KNOW!!!!!!!!!

[dvbuk55]

And whatever happened to the "we want a definitive answer by the 16th of January or else" - well it is now the 25th January and else what? Well it would seem that there is llittle for RM to fear from seemingly empty threats - because what really happens is RM make placatory statements and lo and behold the rabbits in the headlights again. I've heard the statement "grow a pair" time and time again and I really think it is time that those at the table did.

When dingo relates a long winded reply on past glories don't you just know that bad news is around the corner - the threat to pull D2D payment, etc etc has the union ever called their bluff and said do it, not on your life - they're like a six week old puppy rolling over to have its belly tickled.

[Martin Walsh]

And whatever happened to the "we want a definitive answer by the 16th of January or else" - well it is now the 25th January and else what? Well it would seem that there is llittle for RM to fear from seemingly empty threats - because what really happens is RM make placatory statements and lo and behold the rabbits in the headlights again. I've heard the statement "grow a pair" time and time again and I really think it is time that those at the table did.

When dingo relates a long winded reply on past glories don't you just know that bad news is around the corner - the threat to pull D2D payment, etc etc has the union ever called their bluff and said do it, not on your life - they're like a six week old puppy rolling over to have its belly tickled.

Dvbuk sometimes you are so hurtful its like being hit by a wet sponge. I think personally you and a few others on here would not be happy if the union delivered you a pot of gold with some diamonds with it.

[Martin Walsh]

You Know this because you seem to be in the loop.I am not .So any LTB i may have read have no Meat on The Bones so to speak.So when fending off Managment I am desperatley waiting for a difinitve answer on the BSI question,for everthing that flows from this misuse of a standardised set of standards i.e. the crushing strength of a concrete cube has a set value of xNewtons,yet i dare to say where is the established standard for a human beings ability to work.Are RM confusing a set of standards with the vague application of 100 0/0 effort which is something totally different. I NEED TO KNOW!!!!!!!!!

I agree you should know , can I suggest you write in or get your branch writing in asking for an update. The more branch`s that do the quicker the response.

[fishtank]

It's protection most of the members want dingo,not pots of gold or diamonds.
The attendance procedure is abused on a daily basis.
The conduct code is abused on a daily basis.
BSI,Indoor Flow and World Class Mail are abused to show savings that aren't really there.
The delivery agreement is an over complex sham.
Royal Mail management lie to the union at all levels with complete impunity.
Hours are being stripped from both delivery and processing for no other reason than to cut the bottom line.
And you think that we should be happy with this?

[Martin Walsh]

Fish it is protection what members want and I agree on that.

But lets have a look at things , you say we have an attendance procedure which is abused on a daily basis and I agree , but I also remember prior to when we had an attendance procedure when management made decision on dismissal by the ability to recurit and thats why the union got an attendance procedure. The wider question is how do we ensure in an organsisation as big as Royal Mail that managers or in fact for that matter members or reps dont abuse it. Personally I have always been against trigger points as some see them as entitlements which then put pressure on those who are generally ill.

Now in terms of the conduct code I think by and large the conduct code is a good agreement one of the better ones in industry but can it be abused yes but the differculty is how do you stop the abuses and whilst the union can stop and has stopped plenty of mis carraiges it is imposible to stop all.

You say and I share that the delivery part of the agreement is a sham but there are plenty out there who will defend the 6 step process , the 1 in 4 options and indeed the scienetific appoach and I have the scars to prove it. Sometimes we can all live in a goldfish bowl , some deny what is happening in delivery land , some claim to know it by this site but without really knowing the details of each office and that is the issue.

BSI , flow they are all important issues for Royal Mail. I think the flow issue is simply world class mail but without calling it that so they dont have to pay the Professor another lump sum.

Now most of us want to see a quick resolution , I gave a 10 page report to the executive on what is going and how we need to put pressure on Royal Mail to conclude talks but i also understand that not everyone is rowing in the same direction be that the officers , the pec , divisional reps , branch`s , local reps or indeed the members.

BSI