The problem with PO Local

[nfsp.r.useless]

Have you considered opening your shop for a couple of hours per week in the winter months? If you did, you would be providing the same service that POL would be providing under their outreach service. It would make you look like you were doing your best to look after POL customers and they might be more reasonable with you. It would be best to talk this out with POL. They don't want operators going bust, so a compromise should be possible. If you can't come to an agreement with them, then before you do anything, get legal advice first!

[cdpete2004]

I really wish (I think I've said this before) some organisation would take POL to court over their 'contracts' ie. are we employed, or agents, or self employed ? Inland Revenue doesn't really know, since it taxes us as self employed yet charges NIC at employed rate. Do any EU laws, health and safety, working hours, etc. apply to us ? Again, are we 'employed', agents or self employed ? If we're self employed, how can POL insist we take on substitutes if we're on holiday, or sick ? If we're agents, or franchisees, or 'employed' why does POL pay us our remuneration PLUS holiday/sick releief allowance ?

As for pay, we are expected to undertake any work POL tells us to, for which we will be paid a 'reasonable rate'. Five years ago a 'reasonable rate' for the majority of bill payments was 12p per transaction. Now, after inflation rates of approx. 3%, 3%, 4%, 4%, 4.5%, the reasonable rate is 6p. Likewise, phone top-ups REDUCED, POCA payments (paid on value) REDUCED, Label Sales FROZEN when Royal Mail postage rates have risen approx. 30%.

We need a new organiasation, one that will test some of these contractual obligations in an employment court, and be prepared to go to the European Court if needed, and then drag into the equation the state funding of POL (which seems to disappear into Royal Mail coffers magically).

I need a cup of tea. I might be gone for some time.

[cdpete2004]

nibber, your question about the 'contract' is an interesting one. One reply stated that the contract, signed or unsigned, might be inferred to having been accepted and binding (or words something like that) BUT I think the 'inferred' contract applies to EMPLOYEES ONLY. Therefore POL would have to prove that an unsigned contract was a binding, or at least inferred contract, and to prove that was the case, they'd have to confer upon you....wait for it....EMPLOYED STATUS (I think).

So, unless you put up a deposit, which POL would undoubtedly withold unless you took them to court in some sort of test case, (PLEASE TAKE THEM TO COURT AND OPEN A TEST CASE !!!!), I don't see how they could bill you, fine you, or take any action apart from removing their equipment, and as they do, you would be well within your legal rights to insist they made good any damage and could probably insist they reinstated the shop furniture, fixtures and fittings, to their original placement.

If they were to bill you or try to take legal action for loss of income on their part, they would, I assume, have to prove their last 1, or 3, or 5, or 6 previous years' profits. If they had no PO operating for 2, or even 1 year prior to you taking on the position, how could they prove they lost any profit at all ? And why did the original Post office close ? I thought they closed because... yeah, you guessed it...POL said THEY WERE SIMPLY UNPROFITABLE. Loss making. Generating NO PROFITABLE INCOME.

Now, about that cup of tea....

[obiwanknobe]

Excellent point(s) Pete. Loss of income. I like that. Very good.

May the TRPs be with you

Obi

[nibbler]

thanks guys all very helpful posts thank you.

believe me i would love to be the test case but i dont want to be in the public eye so i don't know.

but something has to be done, the whole POL setup is wrong, its either a business that is designed to work for the best interests of all parties , or it is a business that is designed to close all sub post offices down while not putting the blame on POL or the politicians .

i know they know what they are doing is wrong , sadly most of the management are just waiting for the 30 year service mark and then they will retire. in the meantime for 30 years they gave bad service in all forms.

frankly POL is an embaresment as a business , how they are still operating who knows . the whole network is held togeather by underpaid overworked heros ie: postmen/women trainers, collection staff all the people not in management basically

and the point about wether we are self employed or employees is very interesting, POL are blurring the lines between each on purpose.

as for our story


we have now got our mp who has raised the issue above the morons who are dealing with it.

his response was that he is horrified at the shoddy treatment we have received , and is taking our case on.
also local and national news are going to run a story as well


i refuse to be bullied by idiots especially when i subsadise there operation start to finish

[cdpete2004]

I wish you all the best in your battle nibbler. That's what it feels like sometimes, a battle. One of those WW1 ones where the donkey generals forced their men to walk into disaster, through those generals' failure to realise times had changed, and the world had moved onto newer, more effective ways of wiping out the masses as they walked in neat lines to oblivion. (Take the PO local 'open counters' down the road a little ways, and we'll be getting WW1-like casualties too, no doubt).

Then we get the day to day mundane stuff, where we actually begin to think, ok, this isn't such a bad way to spend a day, a week, a month...Then we get the newest big idea, the latest pay settlement, and it's like 'ok guys the whistle's blowing, pick up your stuff, we're going over the top again'.

Please keep us updated on this, I know what you mean about not wanting the publicity, and certainly not having the time or resources to really take on POL, as an individual, I've actually threatened to go to the media once or twice when I've had 'operational' issues, then get theratened back by some nonentity at NBSC reminding me that I'm bound by confidentiality clauses..blah blah. The truth is though I'm too tired to get a handle on the BIG problems POL inflicts on its' subpostmasters. I do have patience though, and a long memory, and when I've FINALLY sold up, then I'll begin to make waves. Honest. I will. I swear I will. Yeah.

PS. if your MP would like any further anecdotal evidence of the idiocy of POL in general, let me know...I'll bet he just pays lip service to anything bigger than your individual case though. But if you do get more than that, the best of luck to you.

[nibbler]

so a wee update

[cdpete2004]

My guess would be they'll carry on as if nothing has happened. You'll probably get the occasional call from Customer Services asking why you're closed, they'll explain a custmer has called up, you'll explain, if you feel like it, why you're closed, or you'll just say they (Customer Services) should contact contracts manager for details, and to tell the customer you'll be open again in the Spring, and they'll be able to get a great customer experience elsewhere 'til then. You'll probably have an occasional call from Product and Branch Accounting, probably once a month, querying nil transactions. Refer them to contracts mananger. Tell them you'll be having something to balance come spring. Wish them a great experience over the winter months. Oh, and contact your insurance company, they may reduce your premium for a few months if you explain you're no longer carrying Post Office cash.

I was amazed by the way to read you had to pay for your own consumables. Since PO prints its' advertising on the printout receipts, and decides what is or isn't printed on those receipts, it should be on paper, with ink provided by them. That you had to carry insurance too for PO cash, I thought they indemnified this cash by default. Then again, they make up the rules as they go along.

Well, good luck nibbler, please kep us in touch with every little thing that goes on over the coming months.

[obiwanknobe]

It now appears that problems have arisen with the proposed trial of PO Mains. Supposedly 4000 of these will be created. Information has come to hand indicating that perhaps not all is that it seems with these creations. 4000 Spms were hopeful of new found wealth if chosen to be one of the illustrious bunch. As it turns out many if not all will be losers when the Core part of their payment is removed and replaced with increased transaction related pay. So much so that POL are now offering £10k up front as a sweetener.

When this new information was published on the NFSP forum they shut it down. Why don;t they want their members to know? What kind of Union is this that betrays its members in this way? Why are they walking hand in hand with POL? The POL forum called Subspaceonline is also removing all references to another forum that has published this information. Censorship will never win.

Obi

I wrote this two years ago. I looked at it again this morning because of the news announcement that the PO Local in Oxenholme is closing down along with the shop.

2 years ago I asked the question why the NFSP was walking hand in hand with POL.

The answer has been recently exposed in FOI requests and the publication of the NFSP accounts that show the NFSP would be loss making without the massive financial backing it receives from POL.

Now we know

May patience be with you

Obi