Lies Royal Mail Lies -Union failure

[DirtyHarry]

H thort you were talkin about yeself then pal haha soz mate joke

Nah, you're going to have to provide subtitles, I'm afraid.

Is that not Ulster Scots

Could be, might be an idea for him though to write in straightforward English, that way I'll understand what it is he's trying to say.

[POSTMAN]

She was also critical of the way managers treat front line staff. Whether anyone listens remains to be seen.

I want more info on this.

[dvbuk55]

The problem isn't playing the cards you've got....it's how you play them and whether you have the bottle go "all in" with what you have.
The membership gave the CWU a decent set of cards in 2009 but instead of raising over Christmas they decided to flat call with the interim agreement and showed weakness to the opponent...Royal Mail sensed that weakness and raised....and the CWU,unsure of how strong it's hand was....depending on opinion either agreed to split the pot or folded.

You've got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, know when to run.....never count your winnings....., not hard really because we haven't had any.

What dingo is really saying is that the CWU is at the mercy of RM plain and simple.................he's just teeing up for the next round of defeats. The upshot of it is, how best to let the troops know what the next stage of the deal of the century is going to be, how much we are going to lose and how to put a positive spin on it.

[flyingsam]

The problem isn't playing the cards you've got....it's how you play them and whether you have the bottle go "all in" with what you have.
The membership gave the CWU a decent set of cards in 2009 but instead of raising over Christmas they decided to flat call with the interim agreement and showed weakness to the opponent...Royal Mail sensed that weakness and raised....and the CWU,unsure of how strong it's hand was....depending on opinion either agreed to split the pot or folded.

You gotta stay off that skypoker..............
If you remember the run up to 2009 we had em by the balls,national strikes that were WELL supported,SKY,and BBC coverage daily, sometimes hourly updates,even mandelson was on the run,and just when the screw was well and truly turned,BANG! We let em off the hook,just in time to clear Christmas! Bet they couldn't believe their luck.Then we go into MONTHS of talks,in which we end up with what?Be happy you got a job,regardless of working conditions??People keep banging on about the falling revenue,thats all RM's fault,they made the original agreement with the DSA companies,not you or i.It was probably the same team of senior managers that bought a load of eastern european countries postal rights in the early 2000's for £100's of Millions,only to give them all away for next to nothing!The higher up in this joke of a company you go,the larger the paypacket,and MORON collecting it,yet we're told to work harder,for less....Magic,cheers!

Could not agree more,if needed we should have taken the strikes into Christmas,and beyond.I am out of Royal Mail in a few months, I have had enough rotten carrots from RM to last me a life time.all they keep going on about is work hard and the rewards will come,Jupiters cock who are they trying to kid.

[dav1524]

The problem isn't playing the cards you've got....it's how you play them and whether you have the bottle go "all in" with what you have.
The membership gave the CWU a decent set of cards in 2009 but instead of raising over Christmas they decided to flat call with the interim agreement and showed weakness to the opponent...Royal Mail sensed that weakness and raised....and the CWU,unsure of how strong it's hand was....depending on opinion either agreed to split the pot or folded.

You gotta stay off that skypoker..............
If you remember the run up to 2009 we had em by the balls,national strikes that were WELL supported,SKY,and BBC coverage daily, sometimes hourly updates,even mandelson was on the run,and just when the screw was well and truly turned,BANG! We let em off the hook,just in time to clear Christmas! Bet they couldn't believe their luck.Then we go into MONTHS of talks,in which we end up with what?Be happy you got a job,regardless of working conditions??People keep banging on about the falling revenue,thats all RM's fault,they made the original agreement with the DSA companies,not you or i.It was probably the same team of senior managers that bought a load of eastern european countries postal rights in the early 2000's for £100's of Millions,only to give them all away for next to nothing!The higher up in this joke of a company you go,the larger the paypacket,and MORON collecting it,yet we're told to work harder,for less....Magic,cheers!

Could not agree more,if needed we should have taken the strikes into Christmas,and beyond.I am out of Royal Mail in a few months, I have had enough rotten carrots from RM to last me a life time.all they keep going on about is work hard and the rewards will come,Jupiters cock who are they trying to kid.

A great opportunity missed, It was like the horse you backed approaching the last hurdle 10 lengths clear only to refuse with the race won.

[smokerjim]

Look it is very easy all moaning and saying why dont Billy and Dave do this or do that.

Face the facts , Royal Mail are not in a great place financially , they are losing revenue faster than they are rasing it. They have a pension deficit which they cannot afford and they have de regulation which is giving away the profitbale parts of the mail services whilst leaving Royal Mail with the costly unprofitable parts of the mail system. They have just decalred that the business plan which the Business Transformation agreement is based is not producing the money either at the speed they thought or on the plans they thought. They have told the union that the plan is going to take 5 years rather than the 3 years to be introduced.

Dingo, allow me to offer some facts for you to face - I'm not in a great place, financially, I'm working as hard, if not harder than I was 4 years ago before P&M, the weight on my back has increased the time allowed to deliver has decreased ( with later start times, and later release times from the office, due to so many FTs prepping PT rounds with so few on IPS ) I have done everything possible to follow the demands of lineos, DOMs, the business & the CWU, yet my take home has steady decreased against inflation, my OT opportunities have decreased, I have been repeatedly let down ( at best, lied to at worst ) by those I have no choice in trusting will take my interests into account and still you come on here defending the failings of the CWU (and I have to respect the stick you take for it), while repeating the mantra "you see that cudgel RM have beaten us with in the recent past? They havne't put it away, so you will get beaten with it again and again

Please don't talk down to us, none of us directly caused the situation, none of us asked for SDD, deregulation of the post, DSA delivered at a loss, bulk collections tenders heavily regulated ( leading to many losing tenders by DSA undercutting ), etc, etc, ( some OPGs and equivelent grades might indirectly exacerbate the situation by not doing the job properly ), neither do we as individuals have any substantial power or influence, but as a collective we do, and we have given that power to you and your peers to wield, and how have you managed to wield it? Well all the above changes happened during the governance by a political party we subscribe to and fund...so did CWU do a bad job with that power, or did you fail to yank on the chain of Labour party subs?

You can argue that we as the collective had responsibility on who wields that power & how it is wielded, which is a fair point...BUT, firstly, the utter lack of communication before or during the event means we are unable to influence the end result - you could tell us afterwards "It's a s**t deal for you & we know it....but why didn't you tell what you wanted during the negotiations?" but we'd respond "We didn't know how s**t the negotiations were going....why didn't you send us back to the gates, why didn't you tell us WHY DID YOU AGREE TO SECRET NEGOTIATIONS???" Secondly, how easy is it to remove a FT union official and replace them with someone else, say from the grassroots, someone that has done the job ( whatever sector is it ) in the last 5 years or so? GS requires 2 branches IIRC ( so at least one branch that won't know a grassroots candidate ) to put forward a candidate before the name goes on the ballot....so if Teebs or Postman decided to pack in their time on RMC and run for HQ, division or branch level, they'd need the significant support of people they've never met ( no change there I s'pose ), yet at the moment there seems to be an aura of "old pals act" or "dead man's shoes" when it comes to union elections, how else after P&M could Billy & Dave have been re-elected unopposed?

So Dingo, in summary, thanks for coming on here and giving updates, but at least show some of the respect we deserve as paying members.

[Body Beyond Repair]

[Danelectro]

Smoker Jim :

Aye the unions relationship with the Labour party caused the most damage,no opposition to the EU directive
and as the £millions of subs rolled in our friends in government decided to introduce the directive years before
any other EU member state and then set up Postcomm which has regulated us into failing

Once the DSA scenario was accepted the battle to retain terms and conditions and decent pay was and is an
uphill struggle.Bob Gibsons roadshow speech which boasted about knowing when to make the right call and embrace
'modernisation was the day the CWU joined the race to the bottom.

[Martin Walsh]

Smokejim If I come over as smug then I aplogise. Those who know me know that I am not. I respect most people as well.

Now I realise some on here see me as a national official responsible for their polices , but I am not and during the silence during the talks I probably gave more information to people on this site than most.

Now lets look at some of your other arguement , DSA well the union opposed the Labour Government`s decsion to open up competition ahead of the rest of Europe , the union also opposed Post Comms moves to open up the market. The union also opposed croziers agreement. We got a review but mandleson got Hooper to change the report. We have lobbied the con dems and the statement on de -regulation will in the minsters words lead to a re-negotiaton of the access price.

Now in terms of wage rises and inflation , well since 2000 postal workers basic pensionable pay has gone up quicker than any previous decade thats has been confirmed , that included the way forward , the £26.28 single daily delivery deal and other pay rises. Now the issue of door to door will have a bearing on take home pay as will overtime etc. Of course it will also depend if you believed that door to door would have continued in the same way as it has done since 1994 national agreement. Now inflation and the cost of living , I think public records show that pay rises across industry generally have not kept in line with inflation. In fact the public sector have got pay freezes in place . Not uncommon as during the early 90s we were tied to public sector pay limits.

Now in terms of the criteria for who can stand for a national officers postion , well the criteria first and foremost should be can you get the support of your own branch , now to do that you must in my view of been a good and capable rep who walks the walk as well as talks the talk. You should be seen as someone who has achieved good agreements in your office. Then you must have the support of 5 Branch`s ( 4 others including your Branch. ) Again I dont see why if you are a good union official that you would not be able to get this if Branch`s recognise your someone who is a good and firm negotitator and has the vision to move the membership forward. Remember just because someone writes something you agree with on this site does not mean that they have done that within their own office or that they have the strength or even the desire to argue this with management at any level but it is more stressful the higher the management you meet. Remember the membersip will have the final say on any election but an indivduals track record counts and that means what that indivdual has done in disputes or polices etc.

[dvbuk55]

It's one thing to oppose something, it's quite another matter to achieve something..............talks with, discussions about.........and the end result?
Quite right to say people should be judged on their record. This last deal just one more failure.

Pay since 2000 2000? That was more than a decade ago and there's been a helluva lot of water under the bridge and a great many allowances and such given up in order to facilitate those "increases".

[Martin Walsh]

Dvbuk was the last deal a failure ? Yes it casued anger about the delivery supplement that is without a doubt. However the union achieved an agreement on the business plan which was meant to achieve over 500 million to Royal Mail over 3 years they now have put their hands up that they can not achieve this plan. The revisions which have gone in which have been intregrated ie walk sequencing which there have been only 120 have by and large been disasters and have meant that the savings have not been achieved and that offices have now got better deals. Offices like Crewe getting more hours in , Dundee , the north west recuriting more staff.

Royal Mail senior operational managers moaning that they were getting more savings when they were not involving the union.

The agreement for Royal Mail has been a disaster not achieving what they believe was going to be their savings. They now announced a new buisness plan which includes in its menu total staff in 5 years of 109 000 total full time equivalents thats total hourage including part time hourage. 33 mail centres end state and 3 RDCs.

So if it has not been succusssful for Royal Mail , does it mean that the Union has come out of it well ? Well it depends , a lot of offices have been able to work with the revision procedure to delay revisions remember only 120 intregrated revisions means there are another 900 to go , spdos do not have intregrated revisons. The ones who have intregarted revisions some are now getting better hours and better deals.

Yes some postal workers will not like the change CDVs , later deliveries , bigger spans etc but with or without an agreement these were coming in. Remember CDVs , walk sequencing , long spans did not come in when the BTA agreement was introduced , they were being introduced as far back as 2008 in some areas.


In terms of pay rises ,allowances including early shift 1&2 were paid for starting early how many offices under walk sequencing will be starting at 0500. Remember MTSF only lasted 3 years it was only the unofficial dispute in 2007 by liverpool and London which forced Royal Mail to concede in the statement that the ealy shift would be grandfather rights if there was not a pay simplifaction deal. Personally if you have been in Royal Mail a long time you will know that allowances come and go remember improved holiday pay , saturday premium, NDA but basic pay remains untouched including unpensionable permanent additions to basic pay like allowances like the delivery supplement.

[superteamu10]

I might be able to get my head around the face that changes had to be made and that maybe the Union did try their best under difficult circumstances, but what I can't except is the Union turning a blind eye to the widespread bullying and harassment of members who are just trying to work to their hours as requested by both Union and management.

This management attitude that it is all our fault for being slow on the IPS and our own prep rates are total nonsense, yet why aren't the Union stepping in.

I have asked nothing from the Union in 18 years and I know it is not just happening in our office as the Forum suggests. I think the Union will lose even more liberal minded members if the Union continue to stand back and do nothing.

[Martin Walsh]

I accept that managers will try and bully indivuduals and have always done so. What I dont accept is that the union does not do anything about it. The union got the indivduals performance standards agreement which meant that there were no prep test rates , IPS rates there was only 1 minute tests.

Now if you are being bullied than who have you raised it too and what have they done ? The union does not begin or end at CWU HQs it begins at your workplace , Branch and Division and they need to take measures to stop it and if they cant they need to raise it to CWU Hqs.

Good luck.

[dvbuk55]

Dvbuk was the last deal a failure ? Yes it casued anger about the delivery supplement

It wasn't just about the delivery supplement, which being pro-rata was totally unfair. It was the introduction of ever longer delivery spans, HCTs, LCTs, and the unions acceptance as a fully fledged partner in all and sundry that Royal Mail wanted to introduce. Most long servers realised that change had to come about but rejected the idea that 2010 and Beyond was the answer and that has proved to be the case and the union must take their equal share of responsibility in that failure.

I fully accept that you personally are not responsible for the unions stance, but lets be honest dingo, you defend that stance as robustly as you can, in the same way that I oppose it.

It's only a few weeks ago that there was a letter about the Transformation of the Union..........how far along the path of reformation has the CWU moved?

[Martin Walsh]

In terms of the transformation of the union well have a look at both the rule revison amendments and motions to conference plenty of change being proposed. Annual Conference will decide.