LTB : national negotiation disclaimer

[dvbuk55]

Tell me the truth:

Isn't that what you are advocating by stating that these arrangements will be down to local negotiations - the stronger offices will have better conditions than the weaker ones - is that really the sum total of these negotiations?

You are very good at answering questions that haven't been asked but are short on the details for the questions that are asked.

Royal Mail may not have got the facts and figures correct, are the union questioning the flights of fancy that Royal Mail seem to think is the way to modernise. Has the Union put forward any counter proposals or indeed any proposals at all?

Now the truth, lets see what you know about Park and loop, or Car derived vans, which is a quite stupid description. How do you think this system operates - and I'm not talking from an office where these are proposals but an office that has been operating the system for 15 months. And forget your idea that someone walks for 4 hours without any weight as opposed to a 3.5 hour delivery with a pouch. I don't want to hear how it is proposed or suggested it works but how it actually works in order to try to complete what is expected.

I tend to find that people talk with great authority on things they know absolutely nothing about.

[tomangoe]

A few thoughts/questions about the so called negotiations/deals being done.Whats the max weight car derived vans can carry ? I reckon with probably 20 bags of mail,packets and trolleys there'll be too much.Where do we go to toilet-in the back of the van? Where do we get fresh drinking water from to which we are entitled.Finally,the good old d2d's-its ok lifting the cap on them but what about the size and weight of them-I can just see royal Mail now negotiating a contract for Next catalogue and Sky mags as d2d !

[The truth!]

Dvbuk I am not advocating anything , I am simply confirming that the Unions long standing policy supported at conference is that National agreements are a framework containing a number of mandatory issues but then allows local negotations on vairous issues.

Tell me what would you like to see CWU HQs negotating every revision in every unit in the country by remote control ?

Now I am happy to answer any questions.

On Car derived vans I visit both the trail sites and the concept was popular. However there some who would rather work on their own.

I have seen car derived vans work in certain places and I have seen it be a disaster in others. For example West Reading it works reasonably well. Whereas in Wimbledon it is a disaster where only one walk out of two gets completed and the remaining walks is performed by a casual. However the reports across the UK is fairly postive.

However this is somewhat ilrevlant as Royal Mail have 10000 of the vechiles in a field in Hampshire waiting to be ulitised. They are going to be used as the new delivery method. The Union will agree the guidelines for their use.

Now you ask do I believe that Royal Mail`s new work plan and walk sequencing will work. No not for one miniute , its a huge gamble for them . However their whole bussiness case and strategy is based on those two factors and they are not moving from that position.

Thats why whether a deal is done or not , members will face both of those changes. The judgement therefore is do we do the deal and get the benefits , the safeguards , from any deal and then see it collaspe , or do we walk away from doing a deal but let Royal Mail impose the change without any of the the safeguards and benefits .

[fishtank]

The problem with negotiated change against imposed change is simple.

When it all goes pear shaped,as it will,management and union response is the same.

"You voted for it,now get on with it."

[The truth!]

Fishtank I dont agree. If Royal Mail impose something and it does not work they normally blame the staff for slow working etc.

If the union agree something and it does not work we attempt to resolve the issue and ensure it works. Thats my experience of being a postman , and a trade union rep.

[fishtank]

I don't want to get into an argument over past agreements.I would rather move on.
Will the twin evils of absorbtion and flexibility be contained within this agreement?
If they are i fear it will be built on sand.
These clauses have been used to bully and harrass members for over two years now.
They are far too vague to be contained in a national agreement.

[BELIAL]

With regards to your point Belial no I am not management and never will be , your arguement that I am because I dare say they is some noise about traffic is laughable.

I know most of you wont believe this but Royal Mail never recieved the savings they believed they were going to get out of SDD. Because whilst a number of walks might have been taken out in offices , a lot of them had to be re-introduced as rest day covers due to SDD bringing in the 5 day week, in mail centres it was worse because they recived £26.28 on the basis of a reference period so most agreed to laspe hours during that period and not take out permantly the hours.

At the risk of being called management again the problem is that due to the postal services bill we now have upstream competion which means that a large chunk of mail we now only recieve revenue for the most costly part of Royal Mail!s operation the final mile the delivery.

Plus Royal Mail are paying 30pence in every pound they make into the pension defcit , that will increase when the new defcit is announced or will mean our pension scheme is at risk of clousre. Thats why the CWU is committed to getting the Government to take on the pension scheme without a joint venture.

No sorry you got that wrong. You could be uncle Tom Cobley for all anyone knows, what I will judge are your words ,and if you are genuine then you've got a problem because whatever your intentions are your view of our future and best interests is going down as well as a Friday wtll session with most on here.
You must admit that your description of MC staff getting a pay rise when RM failed to extract expected savings as a situation that is "worse" is an unconventional approach for any union official.
I think we are all aware of the facts of DSA and pension deficit, but if you or anyone else thinks I'm going to fall for any bull about having to work harder for less reward as a direct consequence of a
deliberate govt. policy ,mismanagement and exploitation of a national service bordering on theft ,then think again. I've seen lots of management comm's about 'falling traffic',DSA pension deficit,they may well have cocked up the service, why should we be expected to pay for their mistakes?

[dvbuk55]

The truth:

You see you are saying that RM have 10000 vans in a field in hampshire, I can't believe that, it sounds like pap to guild the unpalatable - our additional vehicles are unliveried hire vans. Do you understand that what RM have or have not organised does not impact on whether or not it benefits us as members of the CWU. One is not the same as the other.

The reason why I ask about Park and Loop is because the intention is good but the application is flawed. Most offices have had two duties bolted together with extra bits added on, they are not specific to park and loop, in some instances they don't even connect. The postmen rarely use the park and loop method they simply each deliver a round and then the extra packets, tracked and specials. This may not be the intended method and if it isn't and I am sure it isn't then there is a need for a tighter agreement. And that is really where the local negotiations fall down, because it isn't a tight enough agreement, then it is not what is agreed but whatever fits the managers purpose.

[robd]

I am grateful to the truth for his insight,but fear the union is doing it's best to self destruct.
after the P&M disaster,which to be fair we voted to accept the reason industrial relations broke down
were because management locally exploited uncertainty within the agreement,and saw the green light to simply
impose change.
One thing sticks in my mind,a senior RM manager who's name escapes me,said this agreement means we no
longer need any national agreements.
After facing attacks and intimidation,we gave the union the mandate to address this and afford us all protection
with a new National document.
If this new agreement comes back after several months with nothing resolved,and the words 'to be determined
locally' then i can see not a green light,but an open road for management,with members voting with their feet.

[mr deeds]

the "truth" you sound like management to me....if not get real and put a bag on you back and see the unrealistic delivery times/targets we have...did you watch "cant deliver wont deliver" it the first time i have seen footage that is so close to the truth....(pardon the pun)

if royal mail want to get rid of staff offer then the right redundancy package...to be honest my office is a proper f*uck up and if offered the money i would not have to be pushed i'd jump.....10000 vehicles my arse we cant even get uniform

[BELIAL]

Now we can all see the pitfalls, you just gotta ask yourself why someone purporting to be a well connected national union official seems oblivious to the potential problems. he's either a wrong'un or we are in very deep s**t

[dvbuk55]

Now we can all see the pitfalls, you just gotta ask yourself why someone purporting to be a well connected national union official seems oblivious to the potential problems. he's either a wrong'un or we are in very deep s**t

I've ordered my waders and a peg

[BELIAL]

Now we can all see the pitfalls, you just gotta ask yourself why someone purporting to be a well connected national union official seems oblivious to the potential problems. he's either a wrong'un or we are in very deep s**t

I've ordered my waders and a peg

Can we leave your weird sexual peccadilloes out of it for once

[dvbuk55]

Now we can all see the pitfalls, you just gotta ask yourself why someone purporting to be a well connected national union official seems oblivious to the potential problems. he's either a wrong'un or we are in very deep s**t

I've ordered my waders and a peg

Can we leave your weird sexual peccadilloes out of it for once

Awwww - and here's me warming to the theme

[spilie]

Truth you seem to be close to the heart of things, so can you tell me what your personal opinion is on D2D i mean the payment we should receive if it is absorbed, next the rumoured loss of paid breaks, what is your view on that because these are very important (to me anyway)