LTB : national negotiation disclaimer

[fishtank]

All the leaked news seems to involve deliveries, has anyone else noticed? More D2Ds, longer deliveries, longer Saturdays, park and loop with additional duties attached - is anyone else in RM actually doing anything to create a profitable company?

Deliveries is the more public face of Royal Mail, completely feck-up deliveries, and you have a gullible British public wanting to hand over to the sharks of the private sector.
I believe this has been Crozier's and the government's strategy from the beginning.
As you quite rightly pointed out, there appears to be very little in the way of "modernisation" outside of deliveries.

The most obvious target for modernisation would be management.
Although dragging them from their victorian workhouse mentality into the 21st century in one go may be a huge task.
I have heard speak of management culls but we heard that after 2007 and there appears to be more of them than ever.

[DirtyHarry]

The most obvious target for modernisation would be management.
Although dragging them from their victorian workhouse mentality into the 21st century in one go may be a huge task.
I have heard speak of management culls but we heard that after 2007 and there appears to be more of them than ever.

Management cull?
Wash your mouth out! Have you no thought for the office bitches? I mean, what would those two-faced creeps aspire to?
Apart from evoluting one more stage above a dung beetle, that is.
But, yeah, down the years I've heard talk about cutting down on managers, and it's all come to nought, that's not to say I don't think it will ever happen, just that those cuts will be held to last, once Crozier and this rotten government have finished with their massacre of us.

[The truth!]

Thank you for all your comments !! But think very carefully what your saying , you dont want door to door into work load , you dont want later Saturdays , you dont want longer deliveres.

Well neither do the union. But the problem is this , whether the union agrees to this or any other agreement walk sequencing is coming in the money has been spent ( millions. ) Secondly Royal Mail are going to change the workplan fact.

So its a clear choice do we do a national deal taking those things into account and attempting to reach an agreement which which protects full time jobs , sercues a shorter working week , better pay , introduces car derived vans so our members dont go out like packed mules, and sercues a number of other important issues.

Or do we as a union walk away , very tempting and dont think that is not in the mind of some involved in the talks as it is an easy option and would be a very popular opton in the begining for many members.

But what that will do will then mean that Royal Mail will introduce both walk sequencing and the workplan change and the delivery methods without agreement on an office by office basis without any of the issues being covered by a national agreement. That would include later finishes and later starts and more part timers. The worst of all worlds.

Yes we could go out on strike again but the strike was about getting the union into negotations it was never about stopping walk sequencing or the effects which arise from that. It was to ensure once all this was introduced that we had benefits and safeguards from the effect.

See it is alright everyone complaining about you dont want it to be left to the local unit to deal with the issues , but the choice is this either the union accepts that any deal has to be based on both the workplan and walk seqeuencing and deal with the consequences of that or the only other option is we dont do a deal and we allow Branch"s to deal with the consequences of Royal Mail imposing walk seqeuncing in their area and then the work plan issues.

That is the real choice our negotatiors are face with. Dont think for one miniute that they are not attracted by the idea of walking away without a deal. But they know , the government knows that Royal Mail have not purchased and invested most the money they recieved from the Government to just be vetoed by the union. If you do then you must really be in fantasy land.

We can all moan but what would you rather have a deal which recognses the problems which Walk sequencing and the new workplan will bring but also has some important safeguards including no cumpolsory redundancies , improved pay and maximising full time jobs or

No agreement but Royal Mail will introduce both without agreement and deal on an office by office basis based on how strong or weak that office is in order of the level of negotaitions they need to have and the changes that need to be introduced.

See its a tough decison.

[Big Daz]

Anyone can do a deal , the reason why its taking so long is the union is only going to do the right deal.

Ah, I see, that would explain why HQ did not challenge RM more forcefully on Phase 4 back in Jan-April 2008 ... they were waiting for Jan-April 2010!

No rush, no rush at all!

[viking]

Dont hear any mention of health and safety involved in the longer delivery spans.Has everyone forgot that these were trialled a few years ago and were said to be totally unacceptable. Suddenly now they are ,just because it may save a few quid. What price do we have to pay to ensure that :cfo sits on his backside in a nice warm and air conditioned office, drinks machine at the ready and a loo to go to when needed.

[Cut Off King]

Thank you for all your comments !! But think very carefully what your saying , you dont want door to door into work load , you dont want later Saturdays , you dont want longer deliveres.

Well neither do the union. But the problem is this , whether the union agrees to this or any other agreement walk sequencing is coming in the money has been spent ( millions. ) Secondly Royal Mail are going to change the workplan fact.

So its a clear choice do we do a national deal taking those things into account and attempting to reach an agreement which which protects full time jobs , sercues a shorter working week , better pay , introduces car derived vans so our members dont go out like packed mules, and sercues a number of other important issues.

Or do we as a union walk away , very tempting and dont think that is not in the mind of some involved in the talks as it is an easy option and would be a very popular opton in the begining for many members.

But what that will do will then mean that Royal Mail will introduce both walk sequencing and the workplan change and the delivery methods without agreement on an office by office basis without any of the issues being covered by a national agreement. That would include later finishes and later starts and more part timers. The worst of all worlds.

Yes we could go out on strike again but the strike was about getting the union into negotations it was never about stopping walk sequencing or the effects which arise from that. It was to ensure once all this was introduced that we had benefits and safeguards from the effect.

See it is alright everyone complaining about you dont want it to be left to the local unit to deal with the issues , but the choice is this either the union accepts that any deal has to be based on both the workplan and walk seqeuencing and deal with the consequences of that or the only other option is we dont do a deal and we allow Branch"s to deal with the consequences of Royal Mail imposing walk seqeuncing in their area and then the work plan issues.

That is the real choice our negotatiors are face with. Dont think for one miniute that they are not attracted by the idea of walking away without a deal. But they know , the government knows that Royal Mail have not purchased and invested most the money they recieved from the Government to just be vetoed by the union. If you do then you must really be in fantasy land.

We can all moan but what would you rather have a deal which recognses the problems which Walk sequencing and the new workplan will bring but also has some important safeguards including no cumpolsory redundancies , improved pay and maximising full time jobs or

No agreement but Royal Mail will introduce both without agreement and deal on an office by office basis based on how strong or weak that office is in order of the level of negotaitions they need to have and the changes that need to be introduced.

See its a tough decison.

For all the people who will have to do the work ( D2D's / Longer deliveries / One man to a machine etc. ) - we're piZZed at the leaked details of the deal. At the end of the day you can walk away from the deal with a smile to the TV cameras reasuring the public that RM & CWU are on good terms again - But we will have to live with it all our working lives.

[Big Daz]

Did the trials involve HCTS and vans though or just bikes and pouch over the shoulder?

[dvbuk55]

The Truth wrote:

No agreement but Royal Mail will introduce both without agreement and deal on an office by office basis based on how strong or weak that office is in order of the level of negotaitions they need to have and the changes that need to be introduced.

Isn't that what you are advocating by stating that these arrangements will be down to local negotiations - the stronger offices will have better conditions than the weaker ones - is that really the sum total of these negotiations?

There are two issues that seem to be clouded here:

1. The union negotiators are supposed to be protecting US, and all of us, not trying to accommodate what Royal Mail sees as the future of the business.

2. We can still vote no and go back on strike if the deal does NOT protect and serve our needs as well.

[Cut Off King]

The truth! wrote:
Thank you for all your comments !! But think very carefully what your saying , you dont want door to door into work load , you dont want later Saturdays , you dont want longer deliveres.

Well neither do the union. But the problem is this , whether the union agrees to this or any other agreement walk sequencing is coming in the money has been spent ( millions. ) Secondly Royal Mail are going to change the workplan fact.

Why didn't the CWU challange RM BEFORE they had made these work plans/purchases ???????

Maybe we wouldn't be in this mess if the CWU had been PROactive and not REactive

[The truth!]

Dvbuk course you can still vote yes and strike again.

The point being whether we strike or dont strike the two things which will be in any deal either now or as a result of strike action will be Walk Sequencing and a new workplan.

Otherwise Royal Mail would have wasted all those millions of pounds spent on walk sequencing machines for nothing.

The Union would love to find a compromise where instead of the 40% of work from 0600 in the morning going on the walk sequnecing machines having to then have 3 passes each batch of twelve walks meaning work which used to be in your office from appox 0600 wont arrive until as late as 10 but what Royal Mail are refusing to budge on that issue.

The strikes we had were about reaching an agreement , and believe me there wont be an agreement if either the benefits are not right including the door to door supplement and if the Saturday issue is not resolved in some manner.

But the point is whether we make an agreement or not we will all face walk seqeuncing and the changes in the work plan, the timetable and roll out is already underway.

Now with regards to heath and safety reports all the information and adivice including tests show that it is worse to walk 3.5 hours with a bag on your shoulder than 4 hours without a bag on your shoulder. Thats why Royal Mail are introducing car derived vans , and HCTs as the only delivery methods in the future thereby removing the bag on the shoulder method.

Look we have challenged Royal Mail on walk seqencing ever since they did the first trial at Southampton Mail centre for Bitterne Delivery office some years ago. We then had trials on both the siemans and the solysitcs machines which again we frustrated and changed.

We then had the Gatwick and Bristol pilots where we trialled the walk sequencing plans but without taking the hours out of the delivery office.

The problem being is that the work plan allows for just one outward pass in the mail centre thereby removing a number of jobs in the mail centre which protentially closes more of them , whilst there will be more inward work for a mail centre this will not safeguard the number of mail centres as at present.

[Ahebban]

Everyone accepts that we are going to get screwed big-time, with or without a nationally negotiated agreement. The who, what, where, when and why of how we work is going to change .. fact.

What CWU members deserve is Area Reps upwards offering the leadership they deserve in supporting offices at local level. They should not be allowed to fend for themselves as happened under Pay & Mod Agreement. Managers at local offices are not left isolated, they get instructed from above on what to do.

It was this lack of support from CWU HQ that encouraged RM to take the hard line that it did. The only reason CWU is sat around the table negotiating is because local offices, areas and divisions were prepared to make the stand and drag the leadership into calling for national action, action that should have been taken back in Spring 2008 and not left until Winter 2009.

Members are looking for an agreement that meets the needs and aspirations of members, is clear and concise in what it is intended to deliver. Anything less and there will only be continuing problems with RM and CWU.

[BELIAL]

Something is not quite right here.
Either someone is wearing sheep's clothing or something very odd is going on with our union negotiators or their well informed chums.
To dismiss our members very real and proven concerns over traffic volume as "noise" just has management written all over it. We routinely check our figures and consistently we receive 30% more than official figures claim, others report similar discrepancies . Changing from the system designed by Kinetic and agreed by RM and CWU to a system introduced without agreement and obviously designed to allow the introduction of massive cuts should be reason enough for a national dispute. See how many reasons you can think of for deliberately misrepresenting traffic volume, cuts; bonuses ; look how good our changes have been profits up despite traffic fall. Crucial I would have thought but apparently just "noise"
I like the bit about DSA. 'Just get used to it ' so the membership in effect subsidise the profits of TNT et al with cuts in their terms and conditions curious union standpoint.

As for local negotiations. Well if somebody came up with a cunning plan to systematically dismantle a national union in as short a time and with as much confusion and as little coordinated resistance as possible, they would have to go along way to dream up something more effective than' local agreement'. A union busters wet dream if ever there was one, we've seen this before.

I do hope 'Truth ' is management dabbling in the black arts cos, if this is the best the CWU leadership have to offer then I really do see a very bleak future for the workforce

[Ernie Shoe]

"Hopefully an agreement will be reached this week which is acceptable to the membership. But dont be surprised if after all this that the union decide that the benefits on offer are not enough and therefore recommend rejection. Equally be in no doubt whatsoever if the deal is right they will recommend it to the membership and be willing to front up the deal including putting the arguement on why the issues should be resolved locally and why the option of longer spans need to decided by your own unit based on where your office is to the walk seqencing machine and based on whether you want to maximise full time jobs."


Any "agreement or consession" that involves Local Agreement I will vote NO.
I want a national agreement.
I know every union bod that comes on here tries to persuade us all that a lot of issues need to be finalised locally. I won't be brainwashed.
NATIONAL AGREEMENT OR NO.

[Ernie Shoe]

It's all very well you banging on about, "who else turns down extra work/more work?", but, you fellas are going to have to accept that postal worker numbers are diminishing, and we that are left in this shytehole of a company have to continually take up the slack, and there's only so much we can feckin' do in a day. The sooner people like you, realise that people like us are not pack mules, but human beings deserving of some feckin' semblance of dignity in our work, the feckin' better.
Morale is at an all-time low in my DO, tired, aching, workers, hear nothing but how the next deal is almost surely going to result in them being more tired, having more aches, and could lead them to being thrown on the scrapheap much sooner than they had previously thought.
The last paragraph of your post about longer delivery spans, great news for those DOs with strong willed members/reps, and the equivalent of a death sentence for those that aren't/haven't.[/quote]

SPOT ON MATE

[The truth!]

Ahebban couldt agree with you more , Headquaters were slow to act and it was only the result of local office disputes which got them into talks and then to react.

Why was this ? Well I do believe that CWU Headquaters believed that the joint working parties would simply park all of the controversial issues as we have done on numerous occassions in the past.

I know most of you wont believe this but Royal Mail never recieved the savings they believed they were going to get out of SDD. Because whilst a number of walks might have been taken out in offices , a lot of them had to be re-introduced as rest day covers due to SDD bringing in the 5 day week, in mail centres it was worse because they recived £26.28 on the basis of a reference period so most agreed to laspe hours during that period and not take out permantly the hours.

Equally Pay and Mod never achieved what Royal Mail believed it would do hence Tony Mcarthy , Kevin Green , James Farren and Ninean Wilson all left the business due to their role Pay and Mod.

With regards to your point Belial no I am not management and never will be , your arguement that I am because I dare say they is some noise about traffic is laughable.

Lets get things straight

When we use to have traffic related bonus or hours schemes did we or did we not overstate traffic ? Of course we did ! How many times did we say a Jumbo was full when it was only half full , how many times did we say we had 20 boxes of letters and times it by the IPKs to get a figure when some of those boxes were not all full.

When we did WLA audits how many times did we have various other things we over estimated.

So the noise is this , DID WE EVER RECORD TRAFFIC ACCURATELY ?

So when Royal Mail say we now have less traffic then previously , then did we ever truthfully have that traffic level in the first place. Therefore the arguement we need to lose hours is a red herring.

There are many office traffic counts going on , to test the IPKs and there are a lot of differences in what they record. In the main the MIst system which records all machine traffic which is appoxmately 80% of mail is fairly accurate as it is tested every two weeks.

It is the remaining mail which is the issue, some of the work which ends up in delivery units has already been through the mist systems and has been long coded and therefore counted but when it comes into delivery units we attempt to count it again , equally we have found that some IPKs are off the mark and therefore we have to do a further audit to anaylise over a longer period whether the traffic is flawed.

Now at this point . some will come on here and say that you are taking more work then you have ever done. That is true as we have lost thousands of jobs since 2000 , so everyone is doing more delivery points and preping more work then they used to. Plus packets though the internet growth has increased in a big way.

At the risk of being called management again the problem is that due to the postal services bill we now have upstream competion which means that a large chunk of mail we now only recieve revenue for the most costly part of Royal Mail!s operation the final mile the delivery.

Plus Royal Mail are paying 30pence in every pound they make into the pension defcit , that will increase when the new defcit is announced or will mean our pension scheme is at risk of clousre. Thats why the CWU is committed to getting the Government to take on the pension scheme without a joint venture.

Even if the tories get elected they cannot privitise Royal Mail until the pension deficit is tackled as a whole the company including the pension scheme is not a virable propostion.