pouch weighing - new proceedures

[steviemac]

Revised H&S pouch limits 16kg and 11kg and RM/HSE only require 4 random checks by the manager daily.
The previous monitoring required every pouch to be weighed and logged assuring accuracy and observance of H&S regulations.
The new system has been embraced by my DO and am struggeling to present an argument to re-instate old method, what factual arguements can i use use to persuade members of a return to the old system.

[POSTMAN]

Revised H&S pouch limits 16kg and 11kg and RM/HSE only require 4 random checks by the manager daily

We haven't had that on here which makes me think that it's not official.
Brothermagrew?

[Stormproof]

We don't have to write down pouch weights in my office anymore but they are insisting you sign out. Why don't they just bring in a clocking in/out machine and have everyone return to the office after delivery to punch in/out, that'll stop the runners

[rhino49]

Why don't they just bring in a clocking in/out machine and have everyone return to the office after delivery to punch in/out, that'll stop the runners

That makes a lot of sense - it would also highlight how many people go over their time and have been bullied into ignoring it - good post Stormproof

[brothermagrew]

Revised H&S pouch limits 16kg and 11kg and RM/HSE only require 4 random checks by the manager daily

We haven't had that on here which makes me think that it's not official.
Brothermagrew?

That brother POSTMAN is how I see it. The revised H&S pouch limits 16kg and 11kg thereafter although adopted by some areas to my knowledge has still not yet been officially verfied by CWU HQ H&S Department.

Below is a response that I received from our National H&S Officer in 2007 when I originally queried and asked for confirmation on this very matter.

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Weight of Additional Pouches on Delivery - BOB No. 004/07 Paragraphs 61 (2 Feb 2007) and LTB 163/07 (22 Feb 2007)

Many thanks for your e-mail of 07 February 2007 regarding the above. I would draw your attention to LTB 163/07 dated 22 February 2007 which gives you a 100% accurate report.

The BOB paragraph you refer to was issued whilst I was on leave and was a misunderstanding which is now best forgotten. As a result of it's publication I received a number of enquiries prior to the issue of LTB 163/07.

My talks with Royal Mail are progressing towards a conclusion and I now seem to have reached a position where it's agreed that a sensible and pragmatic way to improve the control of excess weight on delivery and to contribute towards overcoming the problem we have of excess weight being carried over the shoulder causing unacceptable levels of Manual Handling MSD injuries and ill health would be to alter the pouch weight matrix and to look at compliance and how we make it stick alongside which would be to pursue the strategy of removing the weight from the delivery person where ever possible via the introduction of a range of delivery aids and equipment to take the load.

Until then Royal Mail HQ will instruct local managers to make no variance from the existing Pouch Weight Matrix until a new SSOW has been approved and HSE consulted. Royal Mail has asked me to advise you and Area Safety Representatives of this position. I hope to conclude this issue shortly and of course it will be a significant step forward I hope. I will of course keep you updated and issue a report to Branches.

Yours Sincerely

Dave Joyce

National Health, Safety & Environment Officer
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Again there will of course be some who will say but things have moved on since then. To them I would respectfully ask if this remains the case, show me and others the proof of when and where things were officially changed.

[pinstripe]

what factual arguements can i use use to persuade members of a return to the old system.

How about my example. I have always weighed my bags and recorded the weights accurately using the 16kg/11kg rule, leaving an obvious paper trail. My back goes on a regular basis and expect to be issued with a stage warning for my sick absence. The only argument I have in my favour is that I have followed RM's guidelines. I don't think for one minute that the stage will not be issued, but if I didn't have the evidence the outlook could be worse, eg not following H&S guidelines resulting in injury.
There is also the risk of injury to drivers as well, if bags are not weighed, how can they be sure that they are not over weight?



It is time WE ALL took responsibility for our H&S as management have shown they only care when they are forced to.

[steviemac]

Thank you pinstripe.
Brothermagrew and Postman , this new proceedure seems to be in force in many offices, can CWU formally confirm if agreeable or not as it is not being communicated at a local level.
Meantime any more suggestions to put barriers in the way before it becomes embedded into office proceedure.

[brothermagrew]

Thank you pinstripe.
Brothermagrew and Postman , this new proceedure seems to be in force in many offices, can CWU formally confirm if agreeable or not as it is not being communicated at a local level.
Meantime any more suggestions to put barriers in the way before it becomes embedded into office proceedure.

Again and with respect to you steviemac, I may suggest that you email Dave Joyce (djoyce&cwu.org) (CWU H&S National Officer) directly at CWU HQ with your health and safety concerns as although and justifiably a very busy person he does from time to time respond in kind to health and safety queries.

Again in 2008 I emailed Dave over some issues and in that email I again asked him the following:
Obliged if you could also further clarify if a National Agreement has been finalised, agreed and signed with Royal Mail on the thorny issue of delivery pouch weights i.e. 1st pouch 16kg and all subsequent pouches thereafter 11kg or are we still working to the current weights as per the declining pouch weights delivery matrix.

The response to that was as follows:
The revised National Agreement on the new simplified Pouch Weight Matrix has not been finalised, agreed and signed off with Royal Mail yet. I have reached agreement to the principle and therefore the change isn't in doubt. However the key is to ensure it sticks and that robust processes and controls back it up therefore we agreed with RM and the HSE to run a trial in two AGMs areas but the commencement was delayed firstly by the Industrial Action and secondly by the unfortunate death of Ian Stockdale's wife. He has returned now and I'm seeking a trial start date ASAP. Reports will be made via LTBs.



I would add that since that response I have physically not seen any LTB (Letters to Branches) that has confirmed in anyway shape or form that a revised National Agreement has since been finalised. Unless of course that I may have missed one or indeed any of the other brothers and sisters on RMC know different. As far as I see it, until such times as an LTB is produced by the CWU HQ Health & Safety Department confirming that a revised National Agreement has been finalised (Which to reiterate to my knowledge it has not) then these new procedures to which you refer in many offices would be unagreed or as brother POSTMAN put it in his posting unofficial.

Steviemac you haven't made clear in your posting if you are a CWU health and safety rep. If you are a unit-workplace safety rep then please be sure to consult your Area H&S Rep with your concerns as well.

[steviemac]

Thank you for feedback, i'm a member of the CWU and have taken on the H&S for the office only recently and attended a 3 hour (LAP)presentation by Chris at Croydon Beddington Lane regarding standardisation of H&S practice . During this presentation it came to light the revised weight limits and monitoring.
I don't believe i'm the first to attend this presentation and suprised it has not been raised by others, however, it is being promoted as RM policy with HSE involvement and is out there being implemented.
I have raised the issue with my area rep today who is corresponding with DOM's with a view to ensuring all offices revert to tried and trusted weighing and monitoring practices.

[Lounge Lizard]

I have never ever seen or known of a pouch being weighed.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

I have never ever seen or known of a pouch being weighed.

I weigh mine every day and keep a record - going back 4 years now

[tomangoe]

Got told by our Dom yesterday that we weren't to give any packets to the drivers and anything that was in our drop bags we walking postman had to take no matter how big they were.He also said that if we couldn't get them in our bag that we should carry TWO bags-one with mail and the other with packets! At the risk of appearing stupid,I know the H&S guidelines say about bag weights,but what about how many bags you can walk with? Also,as the drivers are the ones who sort up the packets its only human nature for them to give us packets they don't want to deliver.Plus,if you get alot of small packets for one address that you'd normally give a driver,we'd got to take them.What's a Health & Safety Reps take on all this?

[brothermagrew]

Got told by our Dom yesterday that we weren't to give any packets to the drivers and anything that was in our drop bags we walking postman had to take no matter how big they were.He also said that if we couldn't get them in our bag that we should carry TWO bags-one with mail and the other with packets! At the risk of appearing stupid,I know the H&S guidelines say about bag weights,but what about how many bags you can walk with? Also,as the drivers are the ones who sort up the packets its only human nature for them to give us packets they don't want to deliver.Plus,if you get alot of small packets for one address that you'd normally give a driver,we'd got to take them.What's a Health & Safety Reps take on all this?

My take on all this is that your DOM is a clown. For instance let us say that your 1st bag containing letter mail only weighs 16 kilos and DOM's proposal to carry another bag with packets weighing as an instance 10kg. Total weight that your DOM would have you carrying is in this example 26 kilos far in excess of the maximum prescribed weight of not exceeding 16 kilos. One postie and one bag not exceeding health and safety guidelines period.

And if he or she insists ask for it in writing so you know where to rightfully attribute any blame for doing your back in.

[brothermagrew]

Thank you pinstripe.
Brothermagrew and Postman , this new proceedure seems to be in force in many offices, can CWU formally confirm if agreeable or not as it is not being communicated at a local level.
Meantime any more suggestions to put barriers in the way before it becomes embedded into office proceedure.

steviemac

I would further suggest that you particularly have a look at Royal Mail/HSE Guidance for Inspectors posting on health and safety forum and in particular read pages 5 and 6 of this document.

Trials are taking place in North & East London and South & West Wales for a new standard of 16kg and 11kg for all pouches thereafter. As yet, these trials are incomplete and the matrix should be used by preference in all other areas.

As can be determined from the above yes CWU and Royal Mail are hoping to eventually move to a new standard of 16kg and 11kg for all pouches thereafter. But as far as I understand it and as is confirmed above the trials are incomplete and the matrix should be used by preference in all other areas.

[steviemac]

Thank you pinstripe.
Brothermagrew and Postman , this new proceedure seems to be in force in many offices, can CWU formally confirm if agreeable or not as it is not being communicated at a local level.
Meantime any more suggestions to put barriers in the way before it becomes embedded into office proceedure.

steviemac

I would further suggest that you particularly have a look at Royal Mail/HSE Guidance for Inspectors posting on health and safety forum and in particular read pages 5 and 6 of this document.

Trials are taking place in North & East London and South & West Wales for a new standard of 16kg and 11kg for all pouches thereafter. As yet, these trials are incomplete and the matrix should be used by preference in all other areas.

As can be determined from the above yes CWU and Royal Mail are hoping to eventually move to a new standard of 16kg and 11kg for all pouches thereafter. But as far as I understand it and as is confirmed above the trials are incomplete and the matrix should be used by preference in all other areas.

more than happy to read this document, however, the RMchat 'forum rules' appears to be only 1 page so if you could direct me to the correct area i will indeed read up on the guidance.