SENIORITY

[johnnyp]

With plans to remove seniority from the job by royal mail what is the acceptable alternative for allocating duties? :Confused
Thoughts please

[fit2drop]

I think seniority should stay but maybe sickness or complaints could be taken into account because at the moment there is no incentive to be any good. Even if you perform like a cu*t, just stick it out and youll get a walk.

[POSTMAN]

Can't see the union agreeing to this,would this go to vote btw or will RM just put it in?
The idea i heard is for Managers to allocate the jobs,they will be able to put whoever they want on whatever walk ect they wanted.
It will cause a load of grief no doubt,at least with the seniority everyone knows the score.
Even when i 1st started in the job i believed in it and i think it's a fair way to do things.
There are some bastard managers out there and if you don't get on with them......................

[fit2drop]

No, I agree that management shouldnt just allocate walks but there does need to be some way to encourage everyone to be as good as they can and seniority alone doesnt do that. I know that tying it into sickness will penalise genuine cases but it should discourage serial sickies.

[johno47]

People keep going on about seniority, about how its not fair. Seniority has been used for years, and everybody accepts it, well nearly everybody.When i started on rm, i couldnt get the duty i wanted or the leave i wanted for years, but so what and even now ive been outpicked for a duty and sometimes i cant get the leave i want, and ive been on for 24 years.For me its about respect for people who have been doing this job, and putting up the crap that rm dishes out to its workers before i started. Rm say its discriminating against people, well if seniority goes then rm is discriminating against every senior person, because they have had to go through the seniority system. Everybody knows what will happen if seniority goes,it will be more discrimatory than ever before, i.e if the boss likes you or not,because there are some right bastards out there,i know, because we have had most of them at our office.

[F0zziebear]

If a manager is rubbish at his/her job it will ultimately come out in performance and they will get the sack (well they should). Seniority is discrimination because length in the job is just not a good enough indicator as to whether you are good at the job.

Management should of course choose what walk someone does. THat's their job, what they get paid for and no they shouldn't have to consult or get agreement from the or any other union on this. Who runs the company, union reps (who are usually older and higher up the seniority ladder) or the boss, who is paid to make these difficult decisions.

The Manager should also be able to reward good work over and above the expectation of the job and penalise those who fall below it.

Maybe I'm thinking about fantasy land and know what it's like to have a cr*p boss who discriminates, its soul destroying and encourages you to act in a defensive way, which ultimately is not good for you or the company.

As my boss once said, if you don't like the job then do something about it, Leave and find a job that respects you. Royal Mail does not owe you a job for life be it as a postie or in a managerial position, regardless of how many years you have been there.

Royal Mail should recognise that a happy workforce and a stable one will deliver for the customer and save them money in the long run. A badly run DO is one that is short minded and has a high turnover of staff, and where the union reps and senior members just look out for themselves and not the interests of the majority.

Have a think about it and let me know what you think

F0zz

[ROCKY]

a bad boss does not get the sack they move to another job.i like many others have done the waiting game to get a decent duty and have lost out several times in service legnth i dont see it as descrimination but as a form of reward for service and it cant be ageist because age does not equate with service i am senior to many people older than me and have never had a complaint from any of them
i cannot agree with managers picking staff because of the crony system,one section with a dominant manager would wind up with all the better staff leaving the others well and truly in the sh?? .maybe the only true way to allocate duties would be on a interview with all who are interested applying for a duty and then been iterviewed by hr not the manager in question
the only other way would be a points system per person with managers giving points for attendance if you do docket or cut off do you have full 6 weeks leave of less so you need less covering ,can you sort,drive different vehicles,do indoor/bookroom work etc but that seems to be a dangerous route to me might as well send some people on a course then call them corporal or seargent,and give them different pay grades
me i say stick with what we have, its worked for years and the only thing you have to do is turn up every day and with the new later working hours i can see many people just picking duties on locality how close can you finish to home or for the hours can they fit in with partners hours,babysitters,childminders and schools etc nothing to do with duty content

[johno47]

Ihave never known a manager to be sacked for being rubbish at there job (EVER) or for doing anything else that they shouldnt, they just get moved sideways to f***k up somewhere else. I am not saying that seniority is an indication that someoneis good at there job, but if your telling me that a manager would like to pick the duty that everybody does, then what happens when theres a repick and hes got 150-200 duties to sort out, im sure he would love that,bosses making big decisions, dont make me laugh, it takes them all their time to remember to breathe in and out.Union reps dont decide who gets a duty its decided on seniority, and theres no consultation. I am all in favour of penalising people who are crap at their job, but i am not in favour of someone being rewarded for being the bosses mate. because thats what would happen,now that is discrimination. I happen to love my job, i would not have done it for so long if i didnt. The DO where i work is i think the best place to work in the whole country, with great people, we have been told on numerous occasions recently that we have performed really well,different bosses words not mine,our office does not have a big turnover of staff, most have been there between 7-35 years. we look after everybody in our office, we are all one, our last strike was because management wanted to fill full time vacancies with part time staff, instead of making the part time staff that were already working in our office up into full time, which would have been breaking a national agreement, hardly the actions of a selfish workforce is it. I agree rm should recognise that a happy workforce will work better in the long run, but you only have to look at the amount of bullying a lot of managers do see that they obviousely havnt got the message

[F0zziebear]

OK,

I take your points on board. Let me put it this way in one Area I worked there was a DO that had long serving posties, who loved their job, were treated well by their local boss and unsurprisingly local customers were happy. You go to another DO a few miles down the road and its completely different. staff don't trust management and vice versa. Regular strikes, turnover of staff and management is high, quality of service is poor.

As for management not being sacked you're right. Just like poor performing posties don't generally get the sack. Management just get moved around. It's a disgrace and the company is almost like social security for some, and the hard working higher performers who are loyal, love the place and work there for years get crushed.

I hated seeing that. I saw one driver (MBE) for local services always getting asked to do extra drops becasue he was a nice guy and just wanted to make the place a success and look after local residents. Another driver couldn't give a fcuk. Tried to do the minimum amount of work, and it was impossible to sack him.

I left operations because however hard I tried the loudest bully in the DO overly influenced the DOM and union rep. I hear there's a new guy who is in charge. He went over to this guy and said I know about you. I will do everything in my power to take you down. I don't care if I lose hundreds of cases enough will eventually stick. Is that the right attitude? In some ways I want to go and hug the guy, but it goes against my principles of fighting fire with fire when that means essentially bending the rules.

[POSTMAN]

I can't see any manager wanting seniority to go,they get the hump they have to allocate holidays.
And what do they know anyway,they haven't got a clue about the walks or drives,i'd be suprised if any of them know more than half a dozen street names in their area.
All they're interested in is ticking the "office clear" boxes.

I'm on the easiest walk in the office tomorrow the guy who's got it is a 20+yr man,is it fair that i should get it as i've only done 10yrs,and i wash the guvnors car every week.
Or if some herbert comes in and washes it better and i lose my duty,i don't think so.

As for who's the better postman for the job,yeah rite like he knows!!
They don't want it to change just as much as we don't.
Why are RM trying to bring this in anyway,or is it a case of it isn't broke but we'll have a go at fixing it anyway.

[dounome]

im not saying its wrong or right but just because its been here since time began it doesnt make it right, things change in life and better methods of work come to place, my own opinion is if the most senior man is suitable for the job and he wants it thats fine, if not the next most senior suitable volunteer gets it as for leave this should be done on a rota basis where you move up a place every year thus giving people a fair crack at a decent holidy. This is only my opinion so please no hostile comments

[539]

I think some people are actually missing the point on seniority i do not believe management want to remove it from the job because of discrimination this is all about teamworking. Under the current system you pick your duty based on length of service and until the next resign its yours, you know every day when you come to work what your job is. Managements plan however is to have the option to change your duty at will whenever they feel it is required or want too, this could not work with seniority. The two are linked keep seniority teamworking does not work lose seniority and one of the major factors in keeping teamworking out of the job goes.

People that have issues around annual leave and not getting the weeks you want sould have a look at the way forward agreement. Seniority alone should not be used to determine what leave you get the amount of time off and the number of signings will also influence this.

In my office 115 people out of 116 got the leave they wanted the odd one out put his form in too late. So it goes to show you can have seniority and still make sure everybody is looked after.

[POSTMAN]

I've always been lucky with my hols and tbh most people i know have as well.

But i can't see us voting to get rid of seniority or for team working.
And there would be MASSIVE uproar if they tried to force them.

[539]

I quite agree postman seniority is one thing that should stay and we should fight as hard as we can to keep it.

[I-POSTIE]

Royal Mail position in regard to seniority is that it does not comply with European law concerning equality. Fundamentally they portray seniority as promoting ageism and therefore, presumably, as law abiding and politically correct, defenders of the workforce, intend to remove the method by which employees are currently allocated choice of jobs, holidays, and etceteras. The reality of the situation for most of us is altogether obvious. Management once again wants to pick and chose those European laws that are adaptable to their purposes and turn a blind eye to those that do not. One will remember management circulating forms for us to sign proposing opting out of European law concerning working time so that they had confirmation that we agreed to work beyond the working time limits legislated within that European law. Certainly, if this is law then there is no opting out. This would be by example, tantamount to management offering us opt out forms for those who wish to continue using there hand held mobile telephone in their car. Indeed to sign such a form would be tantamount to commit conspiracy to breaking the law. Royal Mail management has no such powers that allow them to lawfully opt out of any legislation unless Royal Mail is specifically mentioned within the wording of a specific piece of legislation. They are not mentioned in that legislation concerning work time limits otherwise they would not be asking employees to sign consent forms, they would be compelled to up hold the law, whether we like it or not. Currently, where cuts have been made and overtime staff are desperately needed to fill the gaps the concern regarding the work time limits legislation is now ignored so that the job is done, irrespective of how many hours overtime an employee has completed.

Of course that which management are implying concerning seniority is erroneous. May be if you were to tell outsiders who have no perception of the method operated currently by Royal Mail to establish the order of choice given to employees that it was done by means of seniority they may well leap to the conclusion that older employees were receiving all the benefits no matter how long their service. However, as we know this simply is not true. We have a much fairer system that gives equality to all, which does not discriminate on grounds of sex, religion, race, sexual preference and age. In fact it guards against all those prejudices that the European law was enacted to protect workers from. What is distasteful is that management wants to use this impartial and noble legislation to procure a dictatorship where they can pick and chose employees with impunity and disregard those they do not think worthy. Charges of bias, favouritism and unqualified discipline, one would believe management would wish to relieve themselves of. In the event that management are successful at ceasing seniority they open the flood gate for those who have cause to believe that they have been prejudiced by management to sue under the very legislation that management deceive themselves into believing their ally.

I have to wonder if management has considered leave as it currently stands. Employees with 20 years service receive an extra one weeks leave (5 days). In the event of their success will they then have to give all employees this extra week or will they try to reduce the leave of those who currently receive the benefit. One can argue that this privilege is in the same vein if not more so. Clearly, this advantage is not presently given to anyone under 35 years old, an obvious ageism infraction of that law. The cost and strategic considerations of giving all employees the same six-week (30 days) allowance would be prohibitive if we are to believe management’s current perception of Royal Mail finances. One should consider how much Royal Mail receives from employees whom find they have to purchase extra leave in the present time.

In conclusion, if the European legislation were relevant we would not be able to dispute management’s argument. Management would have to implement it immediately or face fines. The facts are that they are not applying the law in the spirit in which it was written. They have offered no fair, favourable alternative system that does not involve bias on the part of the employer. At the end of the day as an OPG we should all be able to do our basic job or should have equal opportunity to receive training to do a specific job based on seniority and not passed over because a particular manager is exercising his prejudice or favouritism. Should management be so preoccupied with the law at the current time should they not look more closely at their liability concerning the use of private vehicles and how health and safety is observed in some of our more rundown offices?