So where is dave ward...

[norris9]

Well that right there is partly why we're in the situation we are. Legacy staff had an "I'm alright Jack" attitude when two-tier contracts came in. Now the company are actively trying to make life difficult for the legacy staff so they quit. Divide and conquer at it's finest.

Odd to blame the legacy staff for Royal Mail changing the terms and conditions for new starts 3 or so years ago. You signed up to them, so you must have been happy enough with them. Obviously anyone on those terms would like them improved....

Dave Ward has not done enough to equalise terms and conditions and he's getting paid a ridiculous salary.

Legacy staff have seen T&C's depleted with sick pay being massively reduced a couple of years back.

I don't know what the ratio of new:legacy staff is now nationally, but in our office it's probably 50:50. Give it another year or 2 and maybe new contracts outweigh legacy, so those contracts become more and more normalised and accepted.

[reddevils]

Odd to blame the legacy staff for Royal Mail changing the terms and conditions for new starts 3 or so years ago. You signed up to them, so you must have been happy enough with them. Obviously anyone on those terms would like them improved....

It's not helpful to blame legacy staff, I agree. It's also not helpful to dismiss new starters grievances, this is too easy to do and doesn't appreciate the situation and circumstance that new starters find themselves in when starting at Royal Mail.

Yes, they signed the contract.

But....signing the contract doesn't tell them they are entering a two tier workforce. It is a contract substantially different and massively reduced in pay and terms and conditions compared to people on older contracts. This does not compare to the past where pay was reduced for a year or you weren't entitled to certain allowances . New starters contracts compared to old contracts are the most unequal they have been in royal mail history and that is not an exaggeration!

Interviews at Royal Mail can also be very dishonest. New starters have told me managers told them they wouldn't have to work Sundays, there is plenty of overtime, you will only work specific times only for them to find out this had all been fabricated as soon as they walk into the building. Added to this normally being a reserve and being put on the worst duties or duties that haven't gone out of days, you can see why they might be a little pissed off!

And again before people say well when I started I was a reserve, I had it tough...it does not compare to the situation in the present day. Offices are in chaos, workload is intense and the demands are ruthless.

It is wrong to dismiss new starters grievances just as it is wrong to blame legacy staff for something the business has introduced, not the staff! New starters should aim their anger at Royal Mail and the Union. People on older contracts shouldn't dismiss new starters anger at their situation but support them . Telling them 'you signed up to them' is a typical managerial response that shouldn't be said to staff.

It is the same now as management introducing DM26 and telling staff with any sniff of protest or greivance about it; 'well you voted for it'. Too cheap, too easy, don't do it!

[Saturn1]

Funny, because I seem to remember going on strike for 17 days to try and stop a two tier workforce. Nothing "I'm alright jack" about that. Stupid thing to say!

How many legacy staff voted in favour of the pay deal, after two-tier working was already established and in place given the business introduced it Oct 2022? They were clearly happy with the status-quo then, but now the tables have turned on them they don't like it now, short sighted.

Answer:

RMG & CWU BUSINESS RECOVERY, TRANSFORMATION AND GROWTH AGREEMENT
CLOSE OF VOTING: FIRST POST, TUESDAY 11 JULY 2023

CONTEST: Do you endorse the Agreement?

RESULT

Yes
53,043 (75.84%)

No
16,896 (24.16%)

[yellowbelly]

More to the point, why did the cwu members vote this in. When a no vote was the obvious choice.

Err, why did SOME Royal Mail CWU members vote this in!

RESULT No. votes % of valid vote
Yes 19,348 65.4%
No 10,242 34.6%

Turnout for this ballot was 32.9%.

[Woody84]

Odd to blame the legacy staff for Royal Mail changing the terms and conditions for new starts 3 or so years ago. You signed up to them, so you must have been happy enough with them. Obviously anyone on those terms would like them improved....

It's not helpful to blame legacy staff, I agree. It's also not helpful to dismiss new starters grievances, this is too easy to do and doesn't appreciate the situation and circumstance that new starters find themselves in when starting at Royal Mail.

Yes, they signed the contract.

But....signing the contract doesn't tell them they are entering a two tier workforce. It is a contract substantially different and massively reduced in pay and terms and conditions compared to people on older contracts. This does not compare to the past where pay was reduced for a year or you weren't entitled to certain allowances . New starters contracts compared to old contracts are the most unequal they have been in royal mail history and that is not an exaggeration!

Interviews at Royal Mail can also be very dishonest. New starters have told me managers told them they wouldn't have to work Sundays, there is plenty of overtime, you will only work specific times only for them to find out this had all been fabricated as soon as they walk into the building. Added to this normally being a reserve and being put on the worst duties or duties that haven't gone out of days, you can see why they might be a little pissed off!

And again before people say well when I started I was a reserve, I had it tough...it does not compare to the situation in the present day. Offices are in chaos, workload is intense and the demands are ruthless.

It is wrong to dismiss new starters grievances just as it is wrong to blame legacy staff for something the business has introduced, not the staff! New starters should aim their anger at Royal Mail and the Union. People on older contracts shouldn't dismiss new starters anger at their situation but support them . Telling them 'you signed up to them' is a typical managerial response that shouldn't be said to staff.

It is the same now as management introducing DM26 and telling staff with any sniff of protest or greivance about it; 'well you voted for it'. Too cheap, too easy, don't do it!

[Woody84]

Once “legacy” contracts are gone the “new contract” will be the “new legacy contract” if that makes sense.

RM will eventually introduce a newer contract with emphasis on self employed owner drivers etc.

That’s their ultimate goal with all this and my guess is the union know it and are powerless to stop it eventually coming in.

[Emohawk]

Just disappeared and left everyone in complete chaos,it’s disgusting what’s happening at minute,lot of legacy staff just can’t cope,moving around constantly,no set walk,overload work, basically being forced out job.

Sad times

Well that right there is partly why we're in the situation we are. Legacy staff had an "I'm alright Jack" attitude when two-tier contracts came in. Now the company are actively trying to make life difficult for the legacy staff so they quit. Divide and conquer at it's finest.

The fundamental principle of a union is to stick together. We didn't do that at the end of the 2022 dispute and look where we are now. I mean the CWU HQ didn't even get guarantees for their own reps that were suspended before agreeing the pay deal, that's how out of touch we are.

The CWU negotiated a settlement that included two tier contracts.

[Mottnibbler]

Funny, because I seem to remember going on strike for 17 days to try and stop a two tier workforce. Nothing "I'm alright jack" about that. Stupid thing to say!

How many legacy staff voted in favour of the pay deal, after two-tier working was already established and in place given the business introduced it Oct 2022? They were clearly happy with the status-quo then, but now the tables have turned on them they don't like it now, short sighted.

Answer:

RMG & CWU BUSINESS RECOVERY, TRANSFORMATION AND GROWTH AGREEMENT
CLOSE OF VOTING: FIRST POST, TUESDAY 11 JULY 2023

CONTEST: Do you endorse the Agreement?

RESULT

Yes
53,043 (75.84%)

No
16,896 (24.16%)

Short sighted, do me a favour! I voted no, as did many others. The union gaslit people into thinking the business would go bust unless we agreed to the deal. The people that voted yes were short sighted because they wanted the £500 one off payment and a pathetic pay rise. Remember there was only a 32% turnout. The union had a huge mandate but decided to capitulate instead of forcing Royal Mails hand.

[Mottnibbler]

Funny, because I seem to remember going on strike for 17 days to try and stop a two tier workforce. Nothing "I'm alright jack" about that. Stupid thing to say!

How many legacy staff voted in favour of the pay deal, after two-tier working was already established and in place given the business introduced it Oct 2022? They were clearly happy with the status-quo then, but now the tables have turned on them they don't like it now, short sighted.

Answer:

RMG & CWU BUSINESS RECOVERY, TRANSFORMATION AND GROWTH AGREEMENT
CLOSE OF VOTING: FIRST POST, TUESDAY 11 JULY 2023

CONTEST: Do you endorse the Agreement?

RESULT

Yes
53,043 (75.84%)

No
16,896 (24.16%)

And also, the two tier contracts officially started on the 1st of December 2022. Get your facts straight or wind your neck in.

[Saturn1]

Funny, because I seem to remember going on strike for 17 days to try and stop a two tier workforce. Nothing "I'm alright jack" about that. Stupid thing to say!

How many legacy staff voted in favour of the pay deal, after two-tier working was already established and in place given the business introduced it Oct 2022? They were clearly happy with the status-quo then, but now the tables have turned on them they don't like it now, short sighted.

Answer:

RMG & CWU BUSINESS RECOVERY, TRANSFORMATION AND GROWTH AGREEMENT
CLOSE OF VOTING: FIRST POST, TUESDAY 11 JULY 2023

CONTEST: Do you endorse the Agreement?

RESULT

Yes
53,043 (75.84%)

No
16,896 (24.16%)

And also, the two tier contracts officially started on the 1st of December 2022. Get your facts straight or wind your neck in.

Suggest you get your facts right.

"The revised Ts&Cs will apply to people recruited externally from 31 October 2022."

https://www.royalmailchat.co.uk/communi ... 7&t=107172

[Saturn1]

Short sighted, do me a favour! I voted no, as did many others. The union gaslit people into thinking the business would go bust unless we agreed to the deal. The people that voted yes were short sighted because they wanted the £500 one off payment and a pathetic pay rise. Remember there was only a 32% turnout. The union had a huge mandate but decided to capitulate instead of forcing Royal Mails hand.

Look I am aiming this at the legacy people who voted yes. The turnout was actually 67.13%. I agree with what you're saying.

They sold us down the river then, so they have no right to complain the way things are now.

[hero22]

Just disappeared and left everyone in complete chaos,it’s disgusting what’s happening at minute,lot of legacy staff just can’t cope,moving around constantly,no set walk,overload work, basically being forced out job.

Sad times

Well that right there is partly why we're in the situation we are. Legacy staff had an "I'm alright Jack" attitude when two-tier contracts came in. Now the company are actively trying to make life difficult for the legacy staff so they quit. Divide and conquer at it's finest.

The fundamental principle of a union is to stick together. We didn't do that at the end of the 2022 dispute and look where we are now. I mean the CWU HQ didn't even get guarantees for their own reps that were suspended before agreeing the pay deal, that's how out of touch we are.

Funny, because I seem to remember going on strike for 17 days to try and stop a two tier workforce. Nothing "I'm alright jack" about that. Stupid thing to say!

Bang on mate

[Mr Rush]

Funny, because I seem to remember going on strike for 17 days to try and stop a two tier workforce. Nothing "I'm alright jack" about that. Stupid thing to say!

Never happened. It was primarily about pay. Industrial action began on Friday 26th August 2022 and in order to roll that issue into the ongoing dispute midway we would have had to reballot, as was discussed at the time. When the strikes concluded that Christmas Eve the new contracts were already in place (though recruitment was immaterial until summer 2023).

Yes, I and a lot of other people opposed the introduction of the new contracts while we were on strike in 2022. However, legally it had nothing to do it.

The union had a huge mandate but decided to capitulate instead of forcing Royal Mails hand.

That I agree with.

[Saturn1]

Never happened. It was primarily about pay. Industrial action began on Friday 26th August 2022 and in order to roll that issue into the ongoing dispute midway we would have had to reballot, as was discussed at the time..

They did reballot starting January 23rd. I don't know if it incorporated any new issues but it was because the original ballot was at risk of running out after 6 months.

It's sad that such a historic result wasn't acted on at all and all the fighting talk below was merely words..

BREAKING: Postal workers deliver biggest national strike vote in British history
COMMUNICATION WORKERS UNION

16/02/2023

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE



BREAKING: POSTAL WORKERS DELIVER BIGGEST NATIONAL STRIKE VOTE IN BRITISH HISTORY

115,000 postal workers have urged Royal Mail bosses to “take stock” and change course in negotiations, after the Communication Workers Union (CWU) has delivered an historic vote to continue strike action.

In a ballot announced today (Thursday 16th February), the union – which represents Royal Mail Group workers – have voted by 95.9% on a 77.3% turnout to take further strike action.

Despite the intensity of the dispute and employees retiring or leaving the company, turnout rose from the two previous ballots (which were 77% and 72.2% respectively).

This makes this vote the biggest mandate for strike action since the implementation of the 2016 Trade Union Act.

CWU General Secretary Dave Ward said: “After two national ballots, 18 days of action, constant management intimidation and scores of unjust disciplinary cases against their colleagues, postal workers have shown their dignity and determination once again.

“This vote is a historic testament to CWU members across the country who have stood firm against the most severe attacks faced by any set of workers since the miners.

“It is proof that postal workers will not accept their livelihoods being destroyed so that a few at the top can generate serious profits at their expense.

“It is proof that workers loyal to an historic institution like Royal Mail will not accept it being turned into an Uber-style, bog-standard gig economy employer.

“It is proof that for Royal Mail to begin functioning normally again, there needs to be a change in negotiating approach from its leadership that recognises the depth of feeling from the workforce that make their company.

“These people will never be bullied, intimidated or harassed into submission, and this result is a concrete demonstration of that spirit.

“I urge responsible voices in Royal Mail’s leadership to take stock of what has happened today.”

ENDS

[scotchy1962]

Have to say that the continued finger pointing really doesn't help your or anyone elses cause.
You have to somehow get over what is in the past, it's your future i would be worried about and the lack of union backing to aid you all.
Newbies complain about legacy.
Legacy complain about newbies.
Meanwhile the company just keep bending you all over and doing their worst.
You need some sort of cohesive push back that you all can get on board with.
If Trams and his cohorts could get their heads out of a 70's sitcom and create a viable alternative you might have a chance.