Royal Mail to start drug and alcohol testing?

[SpacePhoenix]

if you are asked to be tested I doubt we can decline without facing disciplinary action, I can't see any Employment Tribunal finding in a favour of an ex-employ who declined to be tested.

There are two problems with that.

1) they have to have reasonable grounds to test me.

2) I have reasonable grounds to refuse testing.

They'll likely be testing random groups of staff, either that or everyone on a shift or in an office will be tested in one go. I doubt that anyone will have reasonable grounds for refusing testing.

[LouBarlow]

if you are asked to be tested I doubt we can decline without facing disciplinary action, I can't see any Employment Tribunal finding in a favour of an ex-employ who declined to be tested.

There are two problems with that.

1) they have to have reasonable grounds to test me.

2) I have reasonable grounds to refuse testing.

They'll likely be testing random groups of staff, either that or everyone on a shift or in an office will be tested in one go. I doubt that anyone will have reasonable grounds for refusing testing.

Reasonable grounds would be your contract doesn’t obligate you for testing and you don’t agree to be tested.

[SpacePhoenix]

if you are asked to be tested I doubt we can decline without facing disciplinary action, I can't see any Employment Tribunal finding in a favour of an ex-employ who declined to be tested.

There are two problems with that.

1) they have to have reasonable grounds to test me.

2) I have reasonable grounds to refuse testing.

They'll likely be testing random groups of staff, either that or everyone on a shift or in an office will be tested in one go. I doubt that anyone will have reasonable grounds for refusing testing.

Reasonable grounds would be your contract doesn’t obligate you for testing and you don’t agree to be tested.

Health & safety would almost certainly override that, RM ensuring that anyone who drives is fit to drive and anyone who operates any machinery is fit to operate that machinery.

[Pidleypoo]

if you are asked to be tested I doubt we can decline without facing disciplinary action, I can't see any Employment Tribunal finding in a favour of an ex-employ who declined to be tested.

There are two problems with that.

1) they have to have reasonable grounds to test me.

2) I have reasonable grounds to refuse testing.

They'll likely be testing random groups of staff, either that or everyone on a shift or in an office will be tested in one go. I doubt that anyone will have reasonable grounds for refusing testing.

Reasonable grounds would be your contract doesn’t obligate you for testing and you don’t agree to be tested.

Health & safety would almost certainly override that, RM ensuring that anyone who drives is fit to drive and anyone who operates any machinery is fit to operate that machinery.

I don’t drive or operate machinery for Royal Mail so they don’t have any reasonable grounds to test me.

[Barnacle]

if you are asked to be tested I doubt we can decline without facing disciplinary action, I can't see any Employment Tribunal finding in a favour of an ex-employ who declined to be tested.

There are two problems with that.

1) they have to have reasonable grounds to test me.

2) I have reasonable grounds to refuse testing.

They'll likely be testing random groups of staff, either that or everyone on a shift or in an office will be tested in one go. I doubt that anyone will have reasonable grounds for refusing testing.

Reasonable grounds would be your contract doesn’t obligate you for testing and you don’t agree to be tested.

Health & safety would almost certainly override that, RM ensuring that anyone who drives is fit to drive and anyone who operates any machinery is fit to operate that machinery.

I don’t drive or operate machinery for Royal Mail so they don’t have any reasonable grounds to test me.

For testing to be random, which it has to be, ALL names would go into the pot. You have no reasonable reason not to be tested other than you don’t want to be. Refusing to be tested provides them with a result which will lead to conduct and possible dismissal. It depends how hard they want to go in on this.

But they intend to get rid of 10,000 of us in the near term.

[LouBarlow]

if you are asked to be tested I doubt we can decline without facing disciplinary action, I can't see any Employment Tribunal finding in a favour of an ex-employ who declined to be tested.

There are two problems with that.

1) they have to have reasonable grounds to test me.

2) I have reasonable grounds to refuse testing.

They'll likely be testing random groups of staff, either that or everyone on a shift or in an office will be tested in one go. I doubt that anyone will have reasonable grounds for refusing testing.

Reasonable grounds would be your contract doesn’t obligate you for testing and you don’t agree to be tested.

Health & safety would almost certainly override that, RM ensuring that anyone who drives is fit to drive and anyone who operates any machinery is fit to operate that machinery.

Health and safety doesn’t override employment law. If your contract doesn’t state you agree to be tested then you can’t be without your permission. It is hilarious that people keep plucking information out of their arse when they refuse to do 5 minutes of research on the government website.

[Dexydog]

Yep UK law is pretty clear on this.
If it's not in your contract you don't have to consent.
If you're suspended or sacked you can claim constructive dismissal.
The exception is if you're displaying signs of being under the influence, which seems fair enough.

[Barnacle]

This is all getting lost in nuance. You can of course, refuse to be tested and no one would pin you down. But if you refuse and there are reasonable grounds to test you, based on how you appear or whatever, then it is unlikely that there would be no disciplinary consequences because the whole point is to get rid of people.

So if you want to refuse, that’s your right but be prepared for there to be consequences.

Why would they bother if all these pitfalls hadn’t been trialled in other sectors?

[SpacePhoenix]

This is all getting lost in nuance. You can of course, refuse to be tested and no one would pin you down. But if you refuse and there are reasonable grounds to test you, based on how you appear or whatever, then it is unlikely that there would be no disciplinary consequences because the whole point is to get rid of people.

So if you want to refuse, that’s your right but be prepared for there to be consequences.

Why would they bother if all these pitfalls hadn’t been trialled in other sectors?

I'm guessing that RM will test everyone in an office, either on a schedule or on a random day. Anyone who refuses will probably be suspended. Have whoever provides insurance for RM across the board recently demanded that RM bring in drug and alcohol testing?

[Pidleypoo]

if you are asked to be tested I doubt we can decline without facing disciplinary action, I can't see any Employment Tribunal finding in a favour of an ex-employ who declined to be tested.

There are two problems with that.

1) they have to have reasonable grounds to test me.

2) I have reasonable grounds to refuse testing.

They'll likely be testing random groups of staff, either that or everyone on a shift or in an office will be tested in one go. I doubt that anyone will have reasonable grounds for refusing testing.

Reasonable grounds would be your contract doesn’t obligate you for testing and you don’t agree to be tested.

Health & safety would almost certainly override that, RM ensuring that anyone who drives is fit to drive and anyone who operates any machinery is fit to operate that machinery.

I don’t drive or operate machinery for Royal Mail so they don’t have any reasonable grounds to test me.

For testing to be random, which it has to be, ALL names would go into the pot. You have no reasonable reason not to be tested other than you don’t want to be. Refusing to be tested provides them with a result which will lead to conduct and possible dismissal. It depends how hard they want to go in on this.

But they intend to get rid of 10,000 of us in the near term.

Yes I absolutely do have reasonable grounds to not be tested and I won’t be being tested.

We’ll see.

[Barnacle]

I don’t want to argue with anyone because none of us know how RM is going to go about this or how hard line they plan to be but there are 3 parts of your contract which give them leeway to add this to your terms.

1. Under Collective Agreements, it could be incorporated.
2. Under the Code of Business Standards.
3. Under Variation of Contract.

Each of these parts of your contract allow them to add this policy and hold you accountable.

Far as I’m aware, they haven’t as yet released any amendments and now that the CWU is involved, it could be delayed while a format is agreed.

[Jefferson Starfish]

if you are asked to be tested I doubt we can decline without facing disciplinary action, I can't see any Employment Tribunal finding in a favour of an ex-employ who declined to be tested.

There are two problems with that.

1) they have to have reasonable grounds to test me.

2) I have reasonable grounds to refuse testing.

They'll likely be testing random groups of staff, either that or everyone on a shift or in an office will be tested in one go. I doubt that anyone will have reasonable grounds for refusing testing.

Reasonable grounds would be your contract doesn’t obligate you for testing and you don’t agree to be tested.

Health & safety would almost certainly override that, RM ensuring that anyone who drives is fit to drive and anyone who operates any machinery is fit to operate that machinery.

I don’t drive or operate machinery for Royal Mail so they don’t have any reasonable grounds to test me.

For testing to be random, which it has to be, ALL names would go into the pot. You have no reasonable reason not to be tested other than you don’t want to be. Refusing to be tested provides them with a result which will lead to conduct and possible dismissal. It depends how hard they want to go in on this.

But they intend to get rid of 10,000 of us in the near term.

Yes I absolutely do have reasonable grounds to not be tested and I won’t be being tested.

We’ll see.

In which case you could be taken down the conduct code.

[Pidleypoo]

if you are asked to be tested I doubt we can decline without facing disciplinary action, I can't see any Employment Tribunal finding in a favour of an ex-employ who declined to be tested.

There are two problems with that.

1) they have to have reasonable grounds to test me.

2) I have reasonable grounds to refuse testing.

They'll likely be testing random groups of staff, either that or everyone on a shift or in an office will be tested in one go. I doubt that anyone will have reasonable grounds for refusing testing.

Reasonable grounds would be your contract doesn’t obligate you for testing and you don’t agree to be tested.

Health & safety would almost certainly override that, RM ensuring that anyone who drives is fit to drive and anyone who operates any machinery is fit to operate that machinery.

I don’t drive or operate machinery for Royal Mail so they don’t have any reasonable grounds to test me.

For testing to be random, which it has to be, ALL names would go into the pot. You have no reasonable reason not to be tested other than you don’t want to be. Refusing to be tested provides them with a result which will lead to conduct and possible dismissal. It depends how hard they want to go in on this.

But they intend to get rid of 10,000 of us in the near term.

Yes I absolutely do have reasonable grounds to not be tested and I won’t be being tested.

We’ll see.

In which case you could be taken down the conduct code.

[Pidleypoo]

if you are asked to be tested I doubt we can decline without facing disciplinary action, I can't see any Employment Tribunal finding in a favour of an ex-employ who declined to be tested.

There are two problems with that.

1) they have to have reasonable grounds to test me.

2) I have reasonable grounds to refuse testing.

They'll likely be testing random groups of staff, either that or everyone on a shift or in an office will be tested in one go. I doubt that anyone will have reasonable grounds for refusing testing.

Reasonable grounds would be your contract doesn’t obligate you for testing and you don’t agree to be tested.

Health & safety would almost certainly override that, RM ensuring that anyone who drives is fit to drive and anyone who operates any machinery is fit to operate that machinery.

I don’t drive or operate machinery for Royal Mail so they don’t have any reasonable grounds to test me.

For testing to be random, which it has to be, ALL names would go into the pot. You have no reasonable reason not to be tested other than you don’t want to be. Refusing to be tested provides them with a result which will lead to conduct and possible dismissal. It depends how hard they want to go in on this.

But they intend to get rid of 10,000 of us in the near term.

Yes I absolutely do have reasonable grounds to not be tested and I won’t be being tested.

We’ll see.

In which case you could be taken down the conduct code.

Fully prepared to do that.

[Tman]

Why would you do that?
RM, as with every other employer, has the right to vary your terms of employment as required, so when RM bring in this new testing policy every employee's name will go in the mix to be tested.
What do think RM will do when when you stand there in full barrack-room lawyer mode and decline to be tested?
"OK Mr Piddley, you win, we're wrong and you can go"?
Bearing in mind that there will be those who decline for the obvious reason that they know they're over the limit in some way, RM isn't going to wear nonsense excuses (as already given by some) as a way of swerving the testing.
Pointing out that "it doesn't say that in my contract" isn't going to wash either, given that
1)contracts can be changed as required,
2) RM's contracts are deliberately vague, and
3) it's a new policy being implemented so wouldn't be mentioned in existing contracts anyway.