Royal Mail “making it easier than ever to send parcels”

[Smoothbackground]

Although I worked in quite a few offices when agency, I can only speak about my current office when I say a good 30 of us new entrants have been there for over a year now, though I will accept each office is like stepping into a different company and that in some bad offices people will be very quick to run for the door. I can’t gainsay your 70% figure — though it does seem a very high attrition rate. Where do you get that figure from? Admittedly even in an okay office like my own we have people running for the hills after just a day or two! But that could be more just a realisation the job isn’t what they thought — or attitudes they encounter, or anything else.

As for verifying my OT, it is a question of simple maths. Yes, long hours, but so be it. Everyone in the outside logistics world works a nine-hour day — minimum — as a matter of daily course, unlike the relatively cushy RM world, so there is no undue hardship for me.

Your problem is that you compare to other employers in the sector or other businesses and think you are getting a good deal. You work for an industry that is ripe in exploitation but because you worked for Amazon you say its not that bad. Its like having a boyfriend that would hit you every night but now your new boyfriend only hits every two days. Good improvement!
Instead if supporting Royal Mails new policy on here you should be encouraging people to reject it and to get Royal Mail to pay a living wage! Everyone outside the logistics world may work a nine hour day but they often don't work weekends and have set hours.
As for the statistic I will admit it is a figure I can't remember exact where it came from so shouldn't have published it. My own office 8/10 new starters have recently left. And I know there is official CWU documentation stating 25 percent of new starters leave after 90 days.
[/quote]

I like your analogy, though it doesn’t relate the RM situation here. Leaving Amazon entirely out of the equation, no other logistics business out there employs its staff on guaranteed-hours contracts with all the perks offered by RM. Yes, the new-entrant contract is undoubtedly inferior to the legacy Ts and Cs of longstanding RM staff, and that disparity is unfair, and some might say unjust, but the new contract is still head and shoulders above that offered elsewhere.

Without getting into the minutiae (but completely accepting and believing that 8/10 of new starters at your gaff have walked out — not least because I heard/saw a similar exodus happen at a neighbouring office last year) how would the CWU have any idea of the overall attrition rate, whether it be 70%, 80%, 25% or whatever? Most new starters have nothing to do with the Union — something I can speak of beyond my own office — so how would they know?

[reddevils]

I like your analogy, though it doesn’t relate the RM situation here. Leaving Amazon entirely out of the equation, no other logistics business out there employs its staff on guaranteed-hours contracts with all the perks offered by RM. Yes, the new-entrant contract is undoubtedly inferior to the legacy Ts and Cs of longstanding RM staff, and that disparity is unfair, and some might say unjust, but the new contract is still head and shoulders above that offered elsewhere.

Without getting into the minutiae (but completely accepting and believing that 8/10 of new starters at your gaff have walked out — not least because I heard/saw a similar exodus happen at a neighbouring office last year) how would the CWU have any idea of the overall attrition rate, whether it be 70%, 80%, 25% or whatever? Most new starters have nothing to do with the Union — something I can speak of beyond my own office — so how would they know?
[/quote]

It does relate to it, it might seem an unsuitable analogy but its right. Simply because Royal Mails bar is slightly higher than competitors due to the presence of the union may I add, even though I think the new agreement the union came to with RM was despicable, it does not make it right, fair or just and is not to be celebrated or supported.
Divide and conquer is Royal Mails strategy and you play right into it.

I don't know how the union know. I admit it surprised me as I found the documentation and it says only 16 percent national attrition rate which I can't believe to be true or if it is true just shows the desperation of the workforce in the UK economy. I know my own depot and neighbouring depots have a much more substantial attrition rate, my own 80 percent, but it does say 25 percent of new starters leave after 90 days.

https://www.cwu.org/ltb/ltb-296-24-upda ... onditions/

It also describes the low wage you are earning. I suspect things have got worse in terms of attrition rates but I don't want to publish unverified statistics.

[Londonsburning]

how would the CWU have any idea of the overall attrition rate

Prolly through the freedom of information act or something

[Smoothbackground]

I like your analogy, though it doesn’t relate the RM situation here. Leaving Amazon entirely out of the equation, no other logistics business out there employs its staff on guaranteed-hours contracts with all the perks offered by RM. Yes, the new-entrant contract is undoubtedly inferior to the legacy Ts and Cs of longstanding RM staff, and that disparity is unfair, and some might say unjust, but the new contract is still head and shoulders above that offered elsewhere.

Without getting into the minutiae (but completely accepting and believing that 8/10 of new starters at your gaff have walked out — not least because I heard/saw a similar exodus happen at a neighbouring office last year) how would the CWU have any idea of the overall attrition rate, whether it be 70%, 80%, 25% or whatever? Most new starters have nothing to do with the Union — something I can speak of beyond my own office — so how would they know?

It does relate to it, it might seem an unsuitable analogy but its right. Simply because Royal Mails bar is slightly higher than competitors due to the presence of the union may I add, even though I think the new agreement the union came to with RM was despicable, it does not make it right, fair or just and is not to be celebrated or supported.
Divide and conquer is Royal Mails strategy and you play right into it.

I don't know how the union know. I admit it surprised me as I found the documentation and it says only 16 percent national attrition rate which I can't believe to be true or if it is true just shows the desperation of the workforce in the UK economy. I know my own depot and neighbouring depots have a much more substantial attrition rate, my own 80 percent, but it does say 25 percent of new starters leave after 90 days.

https://www.cwu.org/ltb/ltb-296-24-upda ... onditions/

It also describes the low wage you are earning. I suspect things have got worse in terms of attrition rates but I don't want to publish unverified statistics.
[/quote]

We agree more than disagree here. The attrition rate varies wildly from office to office, even section to section. I have to say, our WPCs (with the exception of one) and managers do a great job of nurturing and mentoring our new recruits, and I think that may be why people haven’t left in such droves at our office. That isn’t to say we haven’t had quite a few decide it isn’t for them, often with no notice, during even the short amount of time I’ve been there. A young lad who lives on our patch was telling me how he lasted three weeks at a neighbouring office, where he had zero interaction/training/anything other than a day of shadowing a supposedly experienced agency postman, before walking out without notice as he felt he was drowning with the indoor work as no one had shown him what to do yet they were expecting him to fully prep two walks (a pairing) in his second week when he had only done lapsing on one of the walks once before. Varies wildly.

[reddevils]

We agree more than disagree here. The attrition rate varies wildly from office to office, even section to section. I have to say, our WPCs (with the exception of one) and managers do a great job of nurturing and mentoring our new recruits, and I think that may be why people haven’t left in such droves at our office. That isn’t to say we haven’t had quite a few decide it isn’t for them, often with no notice, during even the short amount of time I’ve been there. A young lad who lives on our patch was telling me how he lasted three weeks at a neighbouring office, where he had zero interaction/training/anything other than a day of shadowing a supposedly experienced agency postman, before walking out without notice as he felt he was drowning with the indoor work as no one had shown him what to do yet they were expecting him to fully prep two walks (a pairing) in his second week when he had only done lapsing on one of the walks once before. Varies wildly.
[/quote]

I just think you need to be more measured in what you post. There is freedom of speech still on the forum mostly so I am not going to dictate to you what you can post and you do provoke plenty of discussion and debate which might be a good thing. My main problem with Royal Mail is that they are a huge employer in the UK with a vast amount of wealth. Having a two tier work force is just simply wrong. They may justify it by saying due to expenses they can't afford current salaries but I think the problem is the UK economy and society as a whole. There are many part time Royal Mail employees who need Universal Credit to survive, and also full time people at Royal Mail throughout the UK. Having the government topping up wages because businesses won't pay a decent living wage is dysfunctional and wrong. It also means the tax we pay go towards these top ups in income instead of vital services etc.
It is also a case of us being classified as unskilled so the new wages and terms are justified. Most of the managers in Royal Mail were not trained, they became managers over night without qualifications or skills. Yet they are classified as skilled workers. Just hanging around the office to climb the greasy pole does not make you qualified.
You seem an optimistic person and one that is grateful for their circumstances which to an extent can be admired but the workforce as a whole needs to challenge Royal Mail or our terms and conditions will get worse. I don't know of anyone on a legacy contract in my depot that mocks or sees new starters as different. Most have sympathy and feel it is wrong. The odd few say well they decided to work here, which is normally very selfish people who are the type you complain about that have little to no work ethic and have been stealing a living.

[ted_e_bear]

They turn up as a last resort, not by choice. It is a “service” very few people, if any, would willingly choose. Aside from perhaps a small 2% of customers, the vast majority of visitors to the CSP would have much preferred if the postie had delivered their item to a neighbour or safeplace.

What *facts* do you have that says that 2% of customers prefer to use Post Offices and collection points? You don't have any - it's just your own opinion. We should be offering all options for customers to collect and send parcels and that includes collection boxes, post offices and also longer hours for them to go and collect parcels at callers offices. Many customers don't actually want their items delivered to their neighbour and this is why RM introduced a 'delivery to neighbour' option on the PDA so that they are covered when you enter their names. Most posties don't bother doing this and managers still get a lot of complaints regarding denial of receipt. I never bother trying any neighbour unless it's either on the PDA or notified elsewhere. You don't get any brownie points for trying a dozen extra neighbours down the street - so why bother?

I was actually regurgitating the “facts” given to Amazon DSP drivers during first-time delivery training and the instruction not to bring parcels back unless humanly impossible to effect delivery, with over 98% of recipients just wanting their parcel right now, without any faff.

And yes, you do get brownie points — you have less “redeliveries” to do the following day, aka an easier day. It also means the recipient has something to look forward to when getting in from work — playing with the contents of their new parcel — rather than working out how on earth they’ll get down to the Royal Mail CSP during its massively restricted opening times.

We are not Amazon. We do things differently. One of those differences was the Callers Office, where customers could actually speak to a human about any postal issues they were having as well as picking up a parcel or a Special Delivery item. It provided a very well used customer service. Amazon doesn’t care about that.

You work at RM now so stop applying Amazon nonsense to RM.

I'll echo that point regarding the callers office,it was the jewel in our crown compared to anyone else, I can fully understand that paying a wage to have someone sat there waiting for a 'customer' to appear is a bit of a waste of money but surely they could be kept open there should always be someone available to respond to a bell when a customer turns up and come on I'm not having any s**t about the manager or Dom support being too busy to break off and do that.

[Smoothbackground]

how would the CWU have any idea of the overall attrition rate

Prolly through the freedom of information act or something

Royal Mail is a private organisation and as such the Freedom of Information Act doesn’t apply to it.

[Smoothbackground]

We agree more than disagree here. The attrition rate varies wildly from office to office, even section to section. I have to say, our WPCs (with the exception of one) and managers do a great job of nurturing and mentoring our new recruits, and I think that may be why people haven’t left in such droves at our office. That isn’t to say we haven’t had quite a few decide it isn’t for them, often with no notice, during even the short amount of time I’ve been there. A young lad who lives on our patch was telling me how he lasted three weeks at a neighbouring office, where he had zero interaction/training/anything other than a day of shadowing a supposedly experienced agency postman, before walking out without notice as he felt he was drowning with the indoor work as no kone had shown him what to do yet they were expecting him to fully prep two walks (a pairing) in his second week when he had only done lapsing on one of the walks once before. Varies wildly.

I just think you need to be more measured in what you post. There is freedom of speech still on the forum mostly so I am not going to dictate to you what you can post and you do provoke plenty of discussion and debate which might be a good thing. My main problem with Royal Mail is that they are a huge employer in the UK with a vast amount of wealth. Having a two tier work force is just simply wrong. They may justify it by saying due to expenses they can't afford current salaries but I think the problem is the UK economy and society as a whole. There are many part time Royal Mail employees who need Universal Credit to survive, and also full time people at Royal Mail throughout the UK. Having the government topping up wages because businesses won't pay a decent living wage is dysfunctional and wrong. It also means the tax we pay go towards these top ups in income instead of vital services etc.
It is also a case of us being classified as unskilled so the new wages and terms are justified. Most of the managers in Royal Mail were not trained, they became managers over night without qualifications or skills. Yet they are classified as skilled workers. Just hanging around the office to climb the greasy pole does not make you qualified.
You seem an optimistic person and one that is grateful for their circumstances which to an extent can be admired but the workforce as a whole needs to challenge Royal Mail or our terms and conditions will get worse. I don't know of anyone on a legacy contract in my depot that mocks or sees new starters as different. Most have sympathy and feel it is wrong. The odd few say well they decided to work here, which is normally very selfish people who are the type you complain about that have little to no work ethic and have been stealing a living.

I agree with pretty much all you say. Unfortunately, there are no solutions, and it is almost as if the two tiers of the workforce are pitted against one another from the off, causing suspicion and perhaps resentment from the off, which is then compounded by the attitudes of, and comments made by, that small minority of staff we can both identify.

And I do hear you re wages generally not keeping pace, and it is a stain on our society that people are living like this, relying on foodbanks and UC, but cost of living is just crazy all round. The local chippy is closing down because, to pay his bills and make a modest profit, he’d have to charge £22 for fish and chips (already £13) which nobody can afford to pay in our neck of the woods. He is losing money keeping the doors open.

As for managers, aren’t they a necessary evil in every industry? You do sometimes get nice people doing the horrible job of manager, just as, equally, you get nasty people doing the horrible job. New joiners should see some sort of career path for themselves that somehow climbs the ranks. If I hadn’t already served my sentence behind a desk, and if I was 10 years younger and without the personal life experiences I’ve had over the past 10 years, I probably would have jumped at the prospect of being an extremely officious RM manager, bonus and all! Def not anymore though — I can’t stand being in one place for any length of time. My point is that I think there is no harm in young new joiners aspiring to progress up the ranks.

[reddevils]

As for managers, aren’t they a necessary evil in every industry? You do sometimes get nice people doing the horrible job of manager, just as, equally, you get nasty people doing the horrible job. New joiners should see some sort of career path for themselves that somehow climbs the ranks. If I hadn’t already served my sentence behind a desk, and if I was 10 years younger and without the personal life experiences I’ve had over the past 10 years, I probably would have jumped at the prospect of being an extremely officious RM manager, bonus and all! Def not anymore though — I can’t stand being in one place for any length of time. My point is that I think there is no harm in young new joiners aspiring to progress up the ranks.
[/quote]

Managers shouldn't be seen as a necessary evil. Management is about allocating workload and resources plus inspiring and boosting morale around the workforce. Royal Mail managers mostly do administration throughout their day which is a minimum wage job. Tell me a business where all the workforce leave the building. They are team leaders who do admin for the most part, and most of them are unqualified to do even that. Strengthening a workforces mood and morale is vital to improve retention and improve quality.
I am more than qualified to be a manager. I have team leading qualifications, performance management qualifications and academic qualifications. But no I do not think royal mail management is an aspiration currently. I see royal mail management as helping a business to exploit people which they aim to make worse. There is no integrity, morals or principles in that. The current royal mail management from top to bottom is incompetent and poor. It is not something to aim for.

[Mr Rush]

how would the CWU have any idea of the overall attrition rate

Prolly through the freedom of information act or something

Reps will know staffing levels through the resource meetings with local management and presumably pass that information up to the national level.

[Barnacle]

how would the CWU have any idea of the overall attrition rate

Prolly through the freedom of information act or something

Royal Mail is a private organisation and as such the Freedom of Information Act doesn’t apply to it.

How would the CWU know about staff comings and goings? They are informed of this by the private organisation known as Eoyal Mail.

[postslippete]

No thanks, I’m done with working for Amazon. Great for customers, rubbish for staff/workers. There can be no denying though that their tech and consumer insight is the best out there. Even RM are big customers of Amazon Web Services, AI, and some of their data-science stuff, which says it all really.

As for me, I do like most posties I meet, both new and legacy staff, even if some of us have massively different ways of work and a wholly different work ethic. Importantly, I am very fond of all our new-contract posties - we are a great, tight-knit team of dedicated posties. I enjoy working for RM, just as important, they like me working for them, so why change? To quote another famous brand, I’m loving it!

Why would you use a slogan from McDonald's? They pay a pittance and treat their staff like sh*t. Exactly how Amazon treat their staff which you fully admit. Obviously you are clued up enough to understand that this is the road that RM wants to go down but you still think that it is a good thing? You are obviously fortunate to earn £180 in OT for working a day off as most posties in our office would give their right arm to earn that amount and we still have plenty that work their days off.

Enjoy it while it lasts because the only one who really has the last laugh is the business as they can and will cap your earnings potential once they recruit enough staff on contracts like yourself, especially if your office doesn’t have the high attrition rate as other offices do.

[Sean06]

They turn up as a last resort, not by choice. It is a “service” very few people, if any, would willingly choose. Aside from perhaps a small 2% of customers, the vast majority of visitors to the CSP would have much preferred if the postie had delivered their item to a neighbour or safeplace.

What *facts* do you have that says that 2% of customers prefer to use Post Offices and collection points? You don't have any - it's just your own opinion. We should be offering all options for customers to collect and send parcels and that includes collection boxes, post offices and also longer hours for them to go and collect parcels at callers offices. Many customers don't actually want their items delivered to their neighbour and this is why RM introduced a 'delivery to neighbour' option on the PDA so that they are covered when you enter their names. Most posties don't bother doing this and managers still get a lot of complaints regarding denial of receipt. I never bother trying any neighbour unless it's either on the PDA or notified elsewhere. You don't get any brownie points for trying a dozen extra neighbours down the street - so why bother?

I was actually regurgitating the “facts” given to Amazon DSP drivers during first-time delivery training and the instruction not to bring parcels back unless humanly impossible to effect delivery, with over 98% of recipients just wanting their parcel right now, without any faff.

And yes, you do get brownie points — you have less “redeliveries” to do the following day, aka an easier day. It also means the recipient has something to look forward to when getting in from work — playing with the contents of their new parcel — rather than working out how on earth they’ll get down to the Royal Mail CSP during its massively restricted opening times.

We are not Amazon. We do things differently. One of those differences was the Callers Office, where customers could actually speak to a human about any postal issues they were having as well as picking up a parcel or a Special Delivery item. It provided a very well used customer service. Amazon doesn’t care about that.

You work at RM now so stop applying Amazon nonsense to RM.

I'll echo that point regarding the callers office,it was the jewel in our crown compared to anyone else, I can fully understand that paying a wage to have someone sat there waiting for a 'customer' to appear is a bit of a waste of money but surely they could be kept open there should always be someone available to respond to a bell when a customer turns up and come on I'm not having any s**t about the manager or Dom support being too busy to break off and do that.

A manager or dom support are paid to manage not do opg work..how many complaints on here an to cwu about managers doing opg work.

[SpacePhoenix]

A manager or dom support are paid to manage not do opg work..how many complaints on here an to cwu about managers doing opg work.

Managers doing OPG work is a daily occurrence in MCs. It'll often be the shift manager as well

[scotchy1962]

We agree more than disagree here. The attrition rate varies wildly from office to office, even section to section. I have to say, our WPCs (with the exception of one) and managers do a great job of nurturing and mentoring our new recruits, and I think that may be why people haven’t left in such droves at our office. That isn’t to say we haven’t had quite a few decide it isn’t for them, often with no notice, during even the short amount of time I’ve been there. A young lad who lives on our patch was telling me how he lasted three weeks at a neighbouring office, where he had zero interaction/training/anything other than a day of shadowing a supposedly experienced agency postman, before walking out without notice as he felt he was drowning with the indoor work as no kone had shown him what to do yet they were expecting him to fully prep two walks (a pairing) in his second week when he had only done lapsing on one of the walks once before. Varies wildly.

I just think you need to be more measured in what you post. There is freedom of speech still on the forum mostly so I am not going to dictate to you what you can post and you do provoke plenty of discussion and debate which might be a good thing. My main problem with Royal Mail is that they are a huge employer in the UK with a vast amount of wealth. Having a two tier work force is just simply wrong. They may justify it by saying due to expenses they can't afford current salaries but I think the problem is the UK economy and society as a whole. There are many part time Royal Mail employees who need Universal Credit to survive, and also full time people at Royal Mail throughout the UK. Having the government topping up wages because businesses won't pay a decent living wage is dysfunctional and wrong. It also means the tax we pay go towards these top ups in income instead of vital services etc.
It is also a case of us being classified as unskilled so the new wages and terms are justified. Most of the managers in Royal Mail were not trained, they became managers over night without qualifications or skills. Yet they are classified as skilled workers. Just hanging around the office to climb the greasy pole does not make you qualified.
You seem an optimistic person and one that is grateful for their circumstances which to an extent can be admired but the workforce as a whole needs to challenge Royal Mail or our terms and conditions will get worse. I don't know of anyone on a legacy contract in my depot that mocks or sees new starters as different. Most have sympathy and feel it is wrong. The odd few say well they decided to work here, which is normally very selfish people who are the type you complain about that have little to no work ethic and have been stealing a living.

I agree with pretty much all you say. Unfortunately, there are no solutions, and it is almost as if the two tiers of the workforce are pitted against one another from the off, causing suspicion and perhaps resentment from the off, which is then compounded by the attitudes of, and comments made by, that small minority of staff we can both identify.

And I do hear you re wages generally not keeping pace, and it is a stain on our society that people are living like this, relying on foodbanks and UC, but cost of living is just crazy all round. The local chippy is closing down because, to pay his bills and make a modest profit, he’d have to charge £22 for fish and chips (already £13) which nobody can afford to pay in our neck of the woods. He is losing money keeping the doors open.

As for managers, aren’t they a necessary evil in every industry? You do sometimes get nice people doing the horrible job of manager, just as, equally, you get nasty people doing the horrible job. New joiners should see some sort of career path for themselves that somehow climbs the ranks. If I hadn’t already served my sentence behind a desk, and if I was 10 years younger and without the personal life experiences I’ve had over the past 10 years, I probably would have jumped at the prospect of being an extremely officious RM manager, bonus and all! Def not anymore though — I can’t stand being in one place for any length of time. My point is that I think there is no harm in young new joiners aspiring to progress up the ranks.

The "two tiers" aren't pitted against each other in my eyes, you see this is the problem people stirring up resentment that doesn't exist to begin with. Yes there is two different pay structures within RMs OPG workforce, but people know exactly what they are signing up too, the suspicion and resentment can only be coming from the newbies and the idiots within the "legacy" contracts, what possible threat are the newbies? New starters filling out the vacancies take the pressure off the rest of the workforce. They don't affect o/t as this firm has always, from day one of me starting 18yrs ago, run on o/t and always will.
As i have said before, do you not think a better place to put your energy is trying to get this company to honour its statement to bring new contract starters up to legacy contracts, i think it was over 5 years they said, and then perhaps there's a goal to aim for, even better try to get parity from the start and then there's no two tiers to begin with.
Managers are probably the poorest bunch i have had the joy of working with, of course there's the odd good one, in fact ours at the moment is great but he's retiring in a few weeks and our new one could be anything. Poachers turned gamekeeper managers usually are a poor bunch as the laziest and biggest suck ups always got the promotion, and suddenly they become the biggest tyrants who could do twice as much as you do in a day. I think RM have started to attempt to move away from this way of promoting so i would hope there's a improvement, but who knows.