Postal workers: Vote no and defend our terms and conditions

[thefox]

It's not the union's fault. RM have been right up for this dispute since day one. RM was determined to get as many changes introduced in a short space of time. The CWU have lessened the impact of some of them but certainly not all. At least the CWU can still represent us in local issues but nationally CWU has been badly wounded.

You can't honestly say the union is faultless in all this they have been piss poor and and an embarrassment from the beginning with the cancelled strikes,the 1 or 2 day strikes, their inability to organise rolling strikes and even that idiot holding up wee signs when thompson was getting his arse handed to him.

[Woody Guthrie]

You can't honestly say the union is faultless in all this they have been piss poor and and an embarrassment from the beginning with the cancelled strikes,the 1 or 2 day strikes, their inability to organise rolling strikes and even that idiot holding up wee signs when thompson was getting his arse handed to him.

And yet you want to send this "piss poor embarrassment of idiots" back in to renegotiate a better deal?

[thefox]

Yes i do

[thefox]

Who would you suggest i send back in to renegotiate.

[richietns]

Who would you suggest i send back in to renegotiate.

Thats his point.

[thefox]

Just do a better job this time.

[Woody Guthrie]

Who would you suggest i send back in to renegotiate.

I would suggest that's a question for those promoting a no vote.
I'm not.

I would also suggest that it might not be wise to send the same guys who are saying the cupboard is bare back to the cupboard to look for more.
I doubt they’ll even want that job.
But I'm sure it'll all work out fine.

[thefox]

Who would you suggest i send back in to renegotiate.

I would suggest that's a question for those promoting a no vote.
I'm not.

I would also suggest that it might not be wise to send the same guys who are saying the cupboard is bare back to the cupboard to look for more.
I doubt they’ll even want that job.
But I'm sure it'll all work out fine.

Im sure it will

[scotchy1962]

thing is if we all stuck together and refused to work the new hours then RM have either got to make us all redundant or sack us all and face a tribunal and possible discrimination claims which I doubt they’ll be willing to take that risk

What you have to understand about collective strength is that you can't just expect it to do what you want it to and you have to be aware of its limitations.

Many members won't be affected by the later starts, many will use the flexible working option and many will be able to make other arrangements.

So already us all sticking together has started to look weak.
Royal Mail don't have to sack anyone, they could just bring in the later starts, probably in two or three half hour phases over 18 months and the likelihood of any serious numbers resigning and pushing for constructive dismissal would be very small...and as long as proper consultation was carried out and there was a process for exceptional circumstances (which there is in this agreement) the chances of anyone winning one are tiny.

As I've already pointed out the legal avenue for stopping these changes is not viable.

The only real option is to have union involvement and try to mitigate the impact as much as possible.

Jesus Woody you've just given RM the formula for the future, perhaps don't go into so much detail.
I know you fear the worst, we all do, but like many people have done through history sometimes you have to make a stand.
Be it right or be it wrong, because that's how change happens, somebody has to start it.
Maybe now isn't the time, who knows, you,me or anybody on this forum cannot 100% say what will happen.
Lets see what the result of the vote is, maybe none of this will come to pass.
I would assume most people have already voted so anything on here now shouldn't really affect the result, but two more weeks arguing on here won't make a difference except to your mental health.

[Woody Guthrie]

Jesus Woody you've just given RM the formula for the future, perhaps don't go into so much detail.

They're already well aware of how to impose later starts, they've been doing it since 2006..

That's why my start time has gone from 0430 to 0705.
Take away the work first then no employment tribunal will rule against you.
You can't maintain a start time if there's nothing or very little for people to do.

Once the network changes the start times will change and this is one thing the union had very little wiggle room on unfortunately.

Unions can do a lot but if a business decides to fundamentally change the way it operates there's little they can do other than come up with alternatives which the business will obviously ignore.

It's a shite state of affairs but it is what it is.

[LouBarlow]

The bit you’re not getting here Woody is that for some of us if these new hours come in we won’t be able to stay in our jobs we will have lost our job

And it angers me that all the union is doing is saying oh well sorry about that

Like I said I love this job but I don’t know if I can afford to keep it

Out of interest, why will you not be able to continue in this job if the hours change? What time are you finishing now? How is an hour going to be make or break for you?

I only ask because you are extremely unlikely to find any alternative work out there that offers the kind of hours we are used to. Unless you work nights, and even then, that will mess with school runs in the morning and impact on home life even more so, if you are having to sleep during the day to prepare for working the midnight shift.

People have been having kids and working for years now. How are they doing it but we can’t?

[Tman]

A no vote means that we’ll probably lose any lump sum and pay rise but they still can’t change our start/finish times without agreement

Can't change start times etc without agreement?
Of course they can, with proper notice of the change, which from memory is something like 90 days.
Had it in RM some years back, and the CWU couldn't do thing about it.

[enskied]

The bit you’re not getting here Woody is that for some of us if these new hours come in we won’t be able to stay in our jobs we will have lost our job

And it angers me that all the union is doing is saying oh well sorry about that

Like I said I love this job but I don’t know if I can afford to keep it

Out of interest, why will you not be able to continue in this job if the hours change? What time are you finishing now? How is an hour going to be make or break for you?

I only ask because you are extremely unlikely to find any alternative work out there that offers the kind of hours we are used to. Unless you work nights, and even then, that will mess with school runs in the morning and impact on home life even more so, if you are having to sleep during the day to prepare for working the midnight shift.

People have been having kids and working for years now. How are they doing it but we can’t?

I'll let Jen answer.

But if you're only contracted to 25-30 hours,
The later starts are taking money out of your wallet for child care every day of the week .

For some it is un sustainable.

[LouBarlow]

The bit you’re not getting here Woody is that for some of us if these new hours come in we won’t be able to stay in our jobs we will have lost our job

And it angers me that all the union is doing is saying oh well sorry about that

Like I said I love this job but I don’t know if I can afford to keep it

Out of interest, why will you not be able to continue in this job if the hours change? What time are you finishing now? How is an hour going to be make or break for you?

I only ask because you are extremely unlikely to find any alternative work out there that offers the kind of hours we are used to. Unless you work nights, and even then, that will mess with school runs in the morning and impact on home life even more so, if you are having to sleep during the day to prepare for working the midnight shift.

People have been having kids and working for years now. How are they doing it but we can’t?

I'll let Jen answer.

But if you're only contracted to 25-30 hours,
The later starts are taking money out of your wallet for child care every day of the week .

For some it is un sustainable.

I’ll let Jen answer but then answer anyway? Are you back to stalking my every post just to reply to them? I thought you had gotten over that, but it seems not.

I’ll ask the question to you then, seeing as you are obsessed with me this morning - what time do you finish now and how do parents in other, lesser paid industries, manage to have children and work?

[Jen1]

My contract does not accurately describe my hours/location
If your written contract is out of date or does not accurately reflect how you work, it is a good idea to set out your understanding of your employment agreement with your employer and write down anything you have verbally agreed around your working pattern.

Your employment contract can include both terms that are written down and terms that are not. For example, if you have worked a certain pattern or in a particular location for a long time with your employer’s approval and your employer then tried to change this work pattern, then you would seek to argue that this pattern of work is part of your contract through even if it is not in the written contract.

Your contract may also include ‘custom and practice’ terms, which are often unwritten. This type of term could become part of the employment contract, if it is regularly adopted (e.g., a regular practice for a significant period of time) and is customary in your workplace.

For example, an employee could expect to continue working 9am to 5pm, even if their contract says their hours are on a shift basis, if they have been working that way with their employer’s agreement for a significant period of time. However, if you are only working 9am to 5pm temporarily to help you arrange childcare, then it is unlikely that this temporary change would form a permanent term of your contract.

While you can argue that verbal or ‘custom and practice’ terms are part of your contract of employment, it is much easier to avoid a dispute if your contract is up to date and terms are written down. So if your working pattern/location is different to what was originally written in your contract, ask your employer to update it. You can ask for your employer to provide you with updated employment particulars which reflect your current agreement.

That one is for all newer starters who have been working the same hours for the past 2 years but have a clause in your contract

I’d be grateful if we could persuade our union to investigate thoroughly so we fully understand the consequences if we do refuse to work under the new terms

I’m sure if they cut back on the tea and biscuits they’ll be enough money left from our membership payments to fund an in depth investigation