Vote No.

[stevejm]

The finances which you have seen and it obviously worried you are again not my problem, it might sound selfish but i have been around a few years and worked in a lot of different companies and represented by different unions, i dont believe them but i can understand the fear for the union, job cuts, less members and a implosion of RM as we know it. Creative accounting has been around for years.
I know you think everything you have in this agreement is a small victory, but if this is the way forward and every pay talks it is the same then at what stage do you on behalf of us say "NO" if not now. Does it matter if all you do is delaying the inevitable and thats what it looks like to me.
Get the votes out, stop delaying and have some faith in the members, we have heard the arguments from both sides let us decide and we can all get on with whatever the outcome is. Fear of what might happen is not a excuse for delay.

For example debt levels. Debt is calculated by dividing total liabilities by total assets. For the 2023 results IDS debt levels stand at 37%. In other words its assets are roughly twice its liabilities. Below 30% is considered excellent, above 40% would mean that loans could be harder to obtain.

But.... Goodwill is a component of assets. It is an intangible asset. Assessing how much goodwill a company has is not an exact process. A company is obliged to reassess in a realistic manner every year.

This year, Royal Mail decided to take an impairment charge (basically devaluing Good Will) of £539 million due to "the current risk backdrop and the ongoing industrial dispute". This meant that their overall assets were less - and therefore their debt levels are higher - all achieved by the 'stroke of a pen' .

But also Goodwill is classed as a recoverable asset. End the IA and reduce the risk and suddenly IDS will add that £539 million back on to the assets next year and the debt levels will go down close to 30% and be classed as 'excellent'.

[stevejm]

Also - IDS has assets higher than the share value (share price x issued shares). This is known as "trading at a discount" or a good value share.

This is why Kretinsky is gobbling up shares as their is huge potential value. As th elargest shareholder he is obviously looking at the long term and taken a viewpoint that IDS shares will rise and he will make huge profits on his investment.

That being the case why has the CWU negotiated a profit share agreement that ends in March 2025 ?

The real profits will come off our hard work in these next 2-10 years

[LouBarlow]

Use your common sense man - any hours quoted depends on time of year - obviously in th ewinter it will be dark at 4.30 pm and even in Spring and Autumn by 6pm - so yes, for most of year it is true that hottest time of the day will be between 11am-3pm. But, hot temperatures in those 3 seasons are not an issue are they???

Hot temperatures in the summer are the issue. And often the hottest hours of the day are from 2pm-6pm. You drag up misleading information just to win a debate - sneaky and underhand. Do better!!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/2643743

Drag up misleading information? From the Met? Yeah, what do they know?

[redlen]

Enskied if I was still on deliveries and I knew what I did in terms of both the companies finances and their change agenda then yes I would still have agreed the negotiators agreement.

It does make me chuckle at times , us on the postal executive have seen warts and all the real threat to Royal Mail future and what the company was legally obligated to do to avoid administration.

Yet some on here are now economists and claim it is all lies or the government would save us.

Well your anonymous on this site along with many others who if your wrong who blames you if 30 thousand jobs went or individuals did not get regularly paid.?

Then you have the others who should we let the company go to the wall as it is not our fault with the claim I rather die on my feet then accept the deal. Again they are anonymous and not responsible for 114 thousand members jobs.

Now what do you think will change from voting no ?

1. Do you think Royal Mail are going to continue to fly planes so ghee would be no later starts ? if you do then how you going to make a company who knows the growth in parcels is later and offering a greener option. We have done as much as we can to achieve up to 60 minutes option which we have 4 months to improve on and there will be an exemptions process as well. Start and finish times will come out if a joint statement is reached to resolve 2.5.

2. Our members deserve more pay but the company has declared a loss of over 400 million there was simply no more money to be had.

3. On seasonal variations, Royal Mail wanted no finishing times linked to Siso. Royal Mail have 3 senior directors who come from Land Rover jaguar and wanted annualised hours and productivity normally drops in the summer as traffic dips and yet we have the same number of walks. This has resulted in high levels of absorption.
Seasonal variations is aimed at reducing absorption and the period will run from September 203 to September 2024. All hours will balance over this period. Hours have never balanced over a tax year in fact prior to the way forward we had 2 separate annual leave periods summer and winter.

4. The 30 minute flex option is subject to review but it will not mean anyone will have to flex every day , the current agreement which is not used now is voluntary and with seasonal variations we don’t see that changing.

5. On new entrants, the vast majority of our members did not want to be forced to work Sundays or move later to cover dedicated parcel routes. Once we achieved this in negotiations Royal Mail were always going to introduce a separate workforce to pick up this growth in traffic.

6. The agreement has stopped Royal Mail setting up a separate parcel company and introducing owner drivers on the core deliveries both were priorities of the company’ at the start of the dispute.

7. I do not think that Delivery staff truly understand the significance of the Midland Hub opening up next month and what will have over the next few months. Apart from some rural routes all your large parcels will at some stage not arrive in your Delivery unit. All of a sudden a delivery unit has is letters , flats , d2d , tracked , PS and smaller format 1&2 parcels.

This is why Royal Mail want delivery method changes ,this is why the union wants commitments on no compulsory redundancies and to try and attract our members though better attendance to pick up Dedicated parcel routes and Sundays or we giving the growth to new recruits and owner drivers.

8. No one wanted to see the attendance changes in any agreement but the company were going to impose the changes to the trigger points and give 90 days legal notice on SSP And Ill health retirement. We decided to move modify those changes.

9. The company did not want the independent review into cases and now those members and reps have got the best opportunity to get justice.

So yes I would. This is the best deal in the circumstances we faced , it is not a perfect deal.

Do you really think that it did not cross our minds to be popular to announce more strike action because we knew elements of these agreement would not go down well.

However we would have been playing Russian roulette with yours and all of our members jobs and terms and conditions.

Lots of my mates think I am mad to keep posting on this site or other social media as it is easy for some to call me names and make snide remarks or assumptions which are completely unfounded.

However I have posted on this site for 16 years and I will be bullied or stopped from giving my view and opinion even when most will not even read it before commenting.

What I cannot understand is the finality of scorched earth with terms and conditions. Once they are gone, that's it.

Many companies, large and small, suffer from cash flow funding, economic downturn etc but make agreed arrangements such as temporary Lay-offs and short-time working.

Royal Mail used its declared profits to do a share buyback sceme that cost I believe 200 million.

Why does Royal Mail not sell them back into the financial markets for a rapid input of disposable capital to help balance the books?

[postslippete]

That being the case why has the CWU negotiated a profit share agreement that ends in March 2025 ?

The real profits will come off our hard work in these next 2-10 years

I think both Dave Ward and Andy Furey have been suffering from Stockholm Syndrome in many parts of the agreement - this obviously being one of them.


Anyone believing that they are going to get big bucks from this one-off profit share scheme will be greatly disappointed.

[yellowbelly]

....

3. On seasonal variations, Royal Mail wanted no finishing times linked to Siso. Royal Mail have 3 senior directors who come from Land Rover jaguar and wanted annualised hours and productivity normally drops in the summer as traffic dips and yet we have the same number of walks. This has resulted in high levels of absorption.
Seasonal variations is aimed at reducing absorption and the period will run from September 203 to September 2024. All hours will balance over this period. Hours have never balanced over a tax year in fact prior to the way forward we had 2 separate annual leave periods summer and winter.

.....

If a FT colleague leaves/retires before the start of the summer balancing period next year - will RM pay them for the
2 hrs 'extra' they've worked in the previous peak weeks 39 - week 8?

[enskied]

Enskied if I was still on deliveries and I knew what I did in terms of both the companies finances and their change agenda then yes I would still have agreed the negotiators agreement.

It does make me chuckle at times , us on the postal executive have seen warts and all the real threat to Royal Mail future and what the company was legally obligated to do to avoid administration.

Yet some on here are now economists and claim it is all lies or the government would save us.

Well your anonymous on this site along with many others who if your wrong who blames you if 30 thousand jobs went or individuals did not get regularly paid.?

Then you have the others who should we let the company go to the wall as it is not our fault with the claim I rather die on my feet then accept the deal. Again they are anonymous and not responsible for 114 thousand members jobs.

Now what do you think will change from voting no ?

1. Do you think Royal Mail are going to continue to fly planes so ghee would be no later starts ? if you do then how you going to make a company who knows the growth in parcels is later and offering a greener option. We have done as much as we can to achieve up to 60 minutes option which we have 4 months to improve on and there will be an exemptions process as well. Start and finish times will come out if a joint statement is reached to resolve 2.5.

2. Our members deserve more pay but the company has declared a loss of over 400 million there was simply no more money to be had.

3. On seasonal variations, Royal Mail wanted no finishing times linked to Siso. Royal Mail have 3 senior directors who come from Land Rover jaguar and wanted annualised hours and productivity normally drops in the summer as traffic dips and yet we have the same number of walks. This has resulted in high levels of absorption.
Seasonal variations is aimed at reducing absorption and the period will run from September 203 to September 2024. All hours will balance over this period. Hours have never balanced over a tax year in fact prior to the way forward we had 2 separate annual leave periods summer and winter.

4. The 30 minute flex option is subject to review but it will not mean anyone will have to flex every day , the current agreement which is not used now is voluntary and with seasonal variations we don’t see that changing.

5. On new entrants, the vast majority of our members did not want to be forced to work Sundays or move later to cover dedicated parcel routes. Once we achieved this in negotiations Royal Mail were always going to introduce a separate workforce to pick up this growth in traffic.

6. The agreement has stopped Royal Mail setting up a separate parcel company and introducing owner drivers on the core deliveries both were priorities of the company’ at the start of the dispute.

7. I do not think that Delivery staff truly understand the significance of the Midland Hub opening up next month and what will have over the next few months. Apart from some rural routes all your large parcels will at some stage not arrive in your Delivery unit. All of a sudden a delivery unit has is letters , flats , d2d , tracked , PS and smaller format 1&2 parcels.

This is why Royal Mail want delivery method changes ,this is why the union wants commitments on no compulsory redundancies and to try and attract our members though better attendance to pick up Dedicated parcel routes and Sundays or we giving the growth to new recruits and owner drivers.

8. No one wanted to see the attendance changes in any agreement but the company were going to impose the changes to the trigger points and give 90 days legal notice on SSP And Ill health retirement. We decided to move modify those changes.

9. The company did not want the independent review into cases and now those members and reps have got the best opportunity to get justice.

So yes I would. This is the best deal in the circumstances we faced , it is not a perfect deal.

Do you really think that it did not cross our minds to be popular to announce more strike action because we knew elements of these agreement would not go down well.

However we would have been playing Russian roulette with yours and all of our members jobs and terms and conditions.

Lots of my mates think I am mad to keep posting on this site or other social media as it is easy for some to call me names and make snide remarks or assumptions which are completely unfounded.

However I have posted on this site for 16 years and I will be bullied or stopped from giving my view and opinion even when most will not even read it before commenting.

Martin, thank you for your reply.
I have to apologise to you, as I haven't had time to read it properly and take in your points yet, due to a family medical emergency.

I promise that I will read it properly as soon as my head is straight.

Have to negotiate some time off tomorrow, and that will be hard enough for now

Thank you .

[aiden01]

Family emergency and yet your on here posting seriously

[enskied]

Family emergency and yet your on here posting seriously

I can't sleep Aiden... Can't do anything until tomorrow and not much then.

Why are you here.?

[enskied]

Family emergency and yet your on here posting seriously

I can't sleep Aiden... Can't do anything until tomorrow and not much then.

Why are you here.?

Sorry, hospital waiting rooms.

[Martin Walsh]

Enskied I hope your family emergency gets quickly resolved and wish you all the best.

[TopperGas]

We have also just reached a point in the year where extremes of weather (and alternatively lack of daylight in the winter) become a real problem on delivery and it just isn't healthy for us to be marching around our daily hikes in the mid-afternoon sun. I don't care if it saves them a few quid, it's disgusting that RM prioritise that over the health of their staff, at the same time as trying to cut sick pay as well. The union need to get back on the right side and represent the workers like they're supposed to, they've crossed so many unacceptable lines supporting RM with this agenda.

How do you advise avoiding the mid-day sun on delivery then? Be out delivering at 4am? People need to take personal responsibility and protect themselves in the sun. Cover up, wear a hat and get on with it, as we have all been doing for years now, and how post-people in actually hot countries do.

It’s not the midday sun Lou, if you look at our climate now the hottest time is around 3-4pm which the later starts will be running in to……..

Nonsense. The hottest time of the day is 11am-3pm according to the Met.

https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/weather/wa ... mmed%20hat.

We have all been delivering between those hours for years now.

There's no way 11-12 is hotter than 3-4, last summer was proof of that fact.

[k979aaa]

We have also just reached a point in the year where extremes of weather (and alternatively lack of daylight in the winter) become a real problem on delivery and it just isn't healthy for us to be marching around our daily hikes in the mid-afternoon sun. I don't care if it saves them a few quid, it's disgusting that RM prioritise that over the health of their staff, at the same time as trying to cut sick pay as well. The union need to get back on the right side and represent the workers like they're supposed to, they've crossed so many unacceptable lines supporting RM with this agenda.

How do you advise avoiding the mid-day sun on delivery then? Be out delivering at 4am? People need to take personal responsibility and protect themselves in the sun. Cover up, wear a hat and get on with it, as we have all been doing for years now, and how post-people in actually hot countries do.

It’s not the midday sun Lou, if you look at our climate now the hottest time is around 3-4pm which the later starts will be running in to……..

Nonsense. The hottest time of the day is 11am-3pm according to the Met.

https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/weather/wa ... mmed%20hat.

We have all been delivering between those hours for years now.

There's no way 11-12 is hotter than 3-4, last summer was proof of that fact.

The hottest time of the day is when the sun is out and your in it!

[Basildon Bond]

I agree with this (a quote from Quora)...

The greatest rate of heating occurs at solar noon, when the Sun is at its highest angle. However, the rate of heating generally continues to outpace the rate of cooling for a while after this, so it's typical to have your highest temperatures in mid or late afternoon.

Hence it's 16:25 as I write this and the back garden, and the sun trap that it is, is bouncing the heat back off the ground and it feels a lot hotter than a few hours ago. The streets, tarmac, and paving stones of people's gardens are going to be hotter later in the day if it's been a hot day all day.

[ted_e_bear]

I agree with this (a quote from Quora)...

The greatest rate of heating occurs at solar noon, when the Sun is at its highest angle. However, the rate of heating generally continues to outpace the rate of cooling for a while after this, so it's typical to have your highest temperatures in mid or late afternoon.

Hence it's 16:25 as I write this and the back garden, and the sun trap that it is, is bouncing the heat back off the ground and it feels a lot hotter than a few hours ago. The streets, tarmac, and paving stones of people's gardens are going to be hotter later in the day if it's been a hot day all day.

Couldn't agree more, I'm sat in my back garden, wearing only shorts, sat drinking a cold beer and feeling so glad I'm not working today.