Alternatives?

[Woody Guthrie]

We know the consequences of voting yes and they're all sh!te so it doesn't really matter if the consequences of voting no are sh!te, does it?

I think sometimes we've been protected too much by having a strong union presence over the years.

Yes it matters.

Everything is relative, even shite.

[Nickvilla20]

I think the union should have been more honest with its members before the dispute started. We were never going to get a no strings inflation busting pay rise.

Any gain of pay was going to come at some kind of efficiency cost yet the union pushed the no strings pay rise. It’s no wonder people are angry and want to vote no. Sadly we aren’t as important as we once were especially in the very competitive parcels market.

[Woody Guthrie]

I think to be fair the union underestimated Simon Thompson and the vicious way the business would respond to the pay claim by going directly after both the union and our terms and conditions.

I think they thought he was a soft touch after Rico Back and he played them from the start. I don't think anyone really expected the arse to fall out of the letters game and the drop off in parcels after Covid either. Most industry experts were saying no one would go back to physical shopping but that didn't happen. We were also attacked by the Tories making anti-union legislation even more harsh.

It was a perfect s**t storm against us and you could argue we're lucky still to be in the game.

[Nickvilla20]

I think you are spot on there Woody. As the dispute went on our leverage seemed to diminish.

[LouBarlow]

I think the economy tanking is as much to blame for the packet traffic dropping. My duty is in a wealthy area and even people here are cutting back.

[postslippete]

Sometimes you have to stand your ground, even in the face of overwhelming odds, because all you are doing is delaying the inevitable showdown.

Sometimes if the outcome is mutually assured destruction you have to understand that the lives in your hands are not yours to sacrifice.

At this point in the proceedings there's a way out on the table, it might not be a very palatable way out for you or me but we don't speak for the membership. The members will hopefully soon have the chance to speak for themselves.

What worries me is not those that understand how badly this could go but still feel compelled to vote no, it's actually that many of those who are making the most noise against this agreement seem to have no idea or interest in the consequences.

"It's all just scaremongering" seems to have become a valid argument in everything these days rather than what it really is which is just an inability to make a coherent argument against the point.

One of the dumbest quotes you'll see is that it's better to die on your feet than live on your knees, it really isn't.

You can always get up off your knees, you can't come back from the dead.

Mutually assured destruction - is that what the Royal Mail board are after woody?

How badly it can go depends on the financial situation of the company. We made record profits one year, we make record losses the next. What changed? The only thing I can come up with is gross mismanagement of the company. First, they wanted rid of 700 RM managers who were planning to strike early last year and then they came for us. They slipped up when they said they had a £1.7 billion warchest to break the strikes though and later had to qualify it. A bit like having to qualify the current financial situation of £1 billion in losses. I've been saying for months that they will paint a very black picture of the accounts. It's entirely deliberate.

When parliament reviewed RMs proposed change to a 5 day week USO delivery in January they found that IDS, Royal Mail and the Universal service network were all profitable in each year to 2021/22. Although OfCom did say that a 5-10% profit margin would be a consistent rate of return and this level hasn't been achieved in recent years. The white elephant that is not in the room however is GLS and that is profitable though no cross subsidy.

But in all honesty if failing the USO means that RM could be profitable in the long run, then this is something that could happen rather than the unthinkable - administration. So would a reduction in the universal service really be a bad thing? Offices are deliberately understaffed and are failing the USO now! Let's be honest, no government whether that's Tory or Labour really want to re-nationalise Royal Mail. Governments have enough problems of their own.

I have thought of the consequences. I remember when we were losing a million quid a day when Leighton and Crozier were in charge and they turned it around to profitability in just a year. That's how easy it can change and there's absolutely no reason why we can't do that now. There's a lot of optimism right now that by winning the ballot but losing the dispute will most definitely achieve that - but at what cost?? Staff will leave the business, they will recruit newer ones on crap pay, terms and conditions. We will have a high turnover and take one giant step towards the gig economy.

That is the reality of where we are and what you will be voting for in this deal. The union leadership know that they are between a rock and a hard place. Everything smacks of desperation to try and sell this deal.

[LouBarlow]

As I mentioned above - the economy. People don’t have the money to buy inconsequential s**t when they are struggling to heat their homes. Any turnaround for the company is directly linked to the financial state of the country as a whole.

[postslippete]

As I mentioned above - the economy. People don’t have the money to buy inconsequential s**t when they are struggling to heat their homes. Any turnaround for the company is directly linked to the financial state of the country as a whole.

And I completely disagree. Parcel traffic is still as busy as it has always been and it's certainly busier than it was pre-pandemic imho. Peoples spending habits have changed as more people are online now. You even have people buying cat food and all sorts of crap because, get this, it's cheaper online and more convenient. That is something that is obvious to see when you go down to the high street and find that most stores are closing down.

I just wish they could be ar$ed to be there when we deliver it

[LouBarlow]

As I mentioned above - the economy. People don’t have the money to buy inconsequential s**t when they are struggling to heat their homes. Any turnaround for the company is directly linked to the financial state of the country as a whole.

And I completely disagree. Parcel traffic is still as busy as it has always been and it's certainly busier than it was pre-pandemic imho. Peoples spending habits have changed as more people are online now. You even have people buying cat food and all sorts of crap because, get this, it's cheaper online and more convenient. That is something that is obvious to see when you go down to the high street and find that most stores are closing down.

I just wish they could be ar$ed to be there when we deliver it

It might depend on your area and whether Amazon couriers operate, but since we lost the Amazon contract (or the majority of it at least) our parcel volume plummeted. Cat litter/ food is being delivered by couriers round here.

[scotchy1962]

I think to be fair the union underestimated Simon Thompson and the vicious way the business would respond to the pay claim by going directly after both the union and our terms and conditions.

I think they thought he was a soft touch after Rico Back and he played them from the start. I don't think anyone really expected the arse to fall out of the letters game and the drop off in parcels after Covid either. Most industry experts were saying no one would go back to physical shopping but that didn't happen. We were also attacked by the Tories making anti-union legislation even more harsh.

It was a perfect s**t storm against us and you could argue we're lucky still to be in the game.

Woody i think you are right about underestimating the Slyman, he had a plan he executed it and we fell for it hook, line and sinker.
But we are where we are, whichever way the vote goes we lose, the union loses some power and we lose our t&cs, so where do we go from there?
You cant keep backing down or you will become nothing but a "Lip service" for RM to inform of changes but have no input in the process, the union must see its only kicking the can down the road and if it wants to have any relevance going forward needs to make a stand.
I keep hearing about the mail falling and the parcels but i dont see it, certainly not to the extent some of the people on here seem to think. Bulk postings are the order of the day at the moment and the managers solution is to work them off over a number of days, which to be fair is sensible.
But going forward that wont happen, flex and annualised will become the way forward and you will be out until complete.
I think we all realise that the unions days are numbered unless theres a change in employment law, its hard to fight with both hands tied behind your back. but if you dont make a effort and just keep rolling over then i am afraid times up.
I will just retire and watch from a distance as everyone in this company become part of what they call a "gig" economy, me i call it what it is "modern day slavery"

[scotchy1962]

I think you’ve made it up to be honest.

Why would i make it up Lou?
Do you think i want people to vote a certain way?
And i dont tell other peoples stories.
What Dave told him was enough to change his mind, but not mine. That tells you the difference in people.
Maybe i am stronger than my rep, maybe hes more sensible, who knows!
I dont tell anyone what way to vote.

[Ozzvaldo]

As I mentioned above - the economy. People don’t have the money to buy inconsequential s**t when they are struggling to heat their homes. Any turnaround for the company is directly linked to the financial state of the country as a whole.

And I completely disagree. Parcel traffic is still as busy as it has always been and it's certainly busier than it was pre-pandemic imho. Peoples spending habits have changed as more people are online now. You even have people buying cat food and all sorts of crap because, get this, it's cheaper online and more convenient. That is something that is obvious to see when you go down to the high street and find that most stores are closing down.

I just wish they could be ar$ed to be there when we deliver it

It might depend on your area and whether Amazon couriers operate, but since we lost the Amazon contract (or the majority of it at least) our parcel volume plummeted. Cat litter/ food is being delivered by couriers round here.

We've got the Amazon contract in my office and packet/parcel volumes every day, including Mondays and Tuesdays, are like they were in the Christmas period before we got the contract back a couple of years ago. In spite of the fact that we're running shorthanded and most deliveries failing everyday, It didn't stop them axing 8 HCT rounds and sticking up to 450 delivery points onto each shared van duty in our recent "revision" It's a complete s##t show every day.

[aiden01]

To me, in a fight, you try to advance but you sure as hell don't retreat or give up the position you're already in,

You do if you think you are about to be annihilated.

Surprised Clash at the lack of fight in the union. I had a discussion with my rep and he swapped from a No to a Yes after a discussion with Dave Ward.
I will not repeat his reasoning for the change and believe me i didnt change my mind based on what he told me.
Sometimes you have to stand your ground, even in the face of overwhelming odds, because all you are doing is delaying the inevitable showdown.
We might have reached that point. Just my 5d worth.

Why not reveal his reasoning for changing nobody on here knows you.maybe dave convinced him its the only way forward.but alas not going to convince everybody.

Aiden i know you love a good old stir and your repeated attempts to get some sort of alternative to this agreement out of little old me are getting boring, we dont agree, get over it, i dont have to give a alternative, you dont know what will happen if we vote No and lastly we are only voting on that piece of paper not what might or might not happen. So in answer to your request, no i wont as thats his conversation to share not mine.

Not trying to stir anything but do not want to even think of what voting no will bring.surely every time we vote on that piece of paper as you call it we never know what is going to happem.so i will take my chance by voting yes.

[SpacePhoenix]

We've got the Amazon contract in my office and packet/parcel volumes every day, including Mondays and Tuesdays, are like they were in the Christmas period before we got the contract back a couple of years ago. In spite of the fact that we're running shorthanded and most deliveries failing everyday, It didn't stop them axing 8 HCT rounds and sticking up to 450 delivery points onto each shared van duty in our recent "revision" It's a complete s##t show every day.

How many walks did you have before the revision?

[postslippete]

They got rid of four walks in our section. They now try and rely on those who do ghost overtime and now the agency to complete the work

But most days we fail the USO. Thanks to the union they have agreed for us to work more hours in winter for no loss in pay. Superb effort - Is this really the way forward?

That is why selling the deal to the members at the moment is like flogging a dead horse.