Change-I have seen some post that Royal Mail got everything they wanted , not true , the above was in their original proposal and some of this was in their best and final.

[FilthyBloke]

I have seen some post that Royal Mail got everything they wanted , not true , the above was in their original proposal and some of this was in their best and final.


we have changed the companies position on all the following

1. Up to 3 hour later starts. 17:00 last letter delivery.
2. Processing and network duties moving up to 3 hours later.
3. Compulsory Sundays paid at Monday to Saturday rates.
4. Owner drivers in Royal Mail pick up the growth in parcels.
5. Annualised hours linked to scan in scan out deciding your pay.
6. Flexi bank so you don’t have a finish time you have to complete. Additionally if you finished earlier determine by your PDA/ Siso then they could determine when that hours would be worked.
7. 5 Mail Centre closures.
8. Their best and final agreement only gave a no compulsory redundancies agreement until March 2023.
9. The future of Parcelforce would have been unlimited owner drivers.
10. All legacy allowances to be removed including RRIS which for over 30 thousand members would be a pay cut ranging from £6 to £35 per week.
11. Pay was dependent on the change being introduced. The lump sum was also dependent on change being introduced.
12 individual performance standards linked to PDA OA and 100 BSi indoors. Replacement of the NCI procedure to allow individuals to be sacked for poor performance.
13. No more disagreements or negotiations at local level on revisions etc.
14. New entrants not part of the collective bargaining and a stand alone workforce.


Yes the agreement is not perfect but anyone who believes Royal Mail are going to suddenly say there will be no change will have to think again.

Some understand that…
Personally I think one of the main reasons people are objecting is how the CWU rallied everyone together with statements like “10% and NO strings!” And “win the ballot win the Dispute!”

This is far from ‘NO strings’ and a lot don’t see this deal as a ‘win’.

A lot of people said that RM won’t budge much even way back in august so it’s not a deal that is that surprising to that group. But the others feel they have been sold down the river.

I’m hoping the Q&A with Ward and Co will convince others this is the best deal. Otherwise who knows what RM will do.

Nature of negotiations.
Don't go into it with weak rheteric, would have just emboldened the company.
If they would have started with 'we want 6% and a few changes', we would have got 2% and many changes.

Sure, but make it realistic. To go from 10% no strings attached to 8% over 2 years and decimated terms and conditions doesn’t sit well with the people who voted to support that union objective.
Then win the ballot win the dispute. Members voted overwhelmingly and victory didn’t come.

This is why people are turning on their own union. They feel they were misled.

I know what you are saying but the financial perils of the company changed expectations on pay and forced their hand on sick pay to bridge the gap of lost finances.
I'm not sure Royal Mail would call this a victory to be fair.
They wanted to uberise many parts of the company and smash the union and permanently sack decent reps.
They have had to pull back from that.
I'm sure that was never in their end goal. Well I can pretty much guarantee it wasn't.
If we need some changes in operations to make the company profitable then we have to accept that, otherwise we won't have a job sometime in the not too distant future.

I agree with that. There was a point though where independent negotiators admitted Royal Mail had no money and the CWU still didn’t seem to react to it?
Anyway, where to go from here? Do you think a NO could work or could it make things worse?

Maybe mistakes were make along the way but not intentionally and probably wouldn't have changed the outcome.
The company are going to push through with changes come what may it seems.
Rather have them doing it with the union in the room.
Hard to know for sure but they could make extreme changes through executive action at any time of their choice.
At the minute we have year to assess our situation and decide whether the change in hours/season variations work for us.

That’s pretty much my take. A reluctant YES attitude. At the minute it’s like the Wild West and the sheriff is being overrun. Also for mental health I think its probably more important for some people to know where they stand other than with everything up in the air

[norris9]

no idea how you agreed the sick pay changes.... this is the worst part of it.

The average postie is probably going to lose £200 a year for genuinely being sick.

[77SAMPOST77]

9. The future of Parcelforce would have been unlimited owner drivers.

Think there's a mention somewhere in the deal about merging PF back into RM

There is , but they should get rid of all the owner drivers first .

[CRIBMAD]

Just say THANKS BUT NO THANKS !

[Jinder]

Just say THANKS BUT NO THANKS !

It doesn’t Matter which way you spin there is no aspect of this shoddy agreement which does not have a detrimental impact to posties. Would others in RM or CWU accept drastic changes to every aspect of their working lives? I didn’t think so….

VOTE NO!

[hans solo]

I could pick at points and flaws in all your 14 statements
It’s still a big no from me
And each time CWU tell me to vote yes it will push me even further away

[Mickeybrowneyes]

I could pick at points and flaws in all your 14 statements
It’s still a big no from me
And each time CWU tell me to vote yes it will push me even further away

Why don't you pick the flaws then?

[miles_peters]

The abuse of the RM sickness by most of the time the same individuals means we now have to suffer the consequences.

[clashcityrocker]

Just say THANKS BUT NO THANKS !

It doesn’t Matter which way you spin there is no aspect of this shoddy agreement which does not have a detrimental impact to posties. Would others in RM or CWU accept drastic changes to every aspect of their working lives? I didn’t think so….

VOTE NO!

Where were you during the mail centre rationalisation plan?

[Jb1969]

Never seen you so active Martin, something suggests you’re flogging this deal to death.
How do we know that next time they will be after more & that the CWU will relent & give away more!
No trust, appalling deal & delivery guys/girls will be under relentless pressure for some little of a manager to get his/her bonus.
I’m not delivery, but boy do I have sympathy for them.

[Weetrogg2]

Martin

If RM came next year and said they want a 48 hour week and the CWU took I/A saying no increase in the working week, then after 12 months and 18 days of action the CWU presented an agreement to the members that accepted an increase to a 40 hour working week - would you class that as a victory? because if this agreement is anything to go by you would.

As I’ve said before this agreement is the by far and away the worst I’ve seen in my 25 years and the fact that the executive are trying to sell it as some kind of achievement to be proud of is frankly rubbing salt into the wound.

As a rep I will not be trying to sell this agreement. I’ve spoke with members and basically said it’s a rubbish agreement but the executive says the alternative is worse. I’ve asked them to read the agreement and make up their own mind.

My own opinion is that this agreement may well get voted down judging by the initial reaction of the members but maybe their anger will diminish over the coming weeks, I suspect that’s why the executive have given an unusually long time frame for the ballot.

[k979aaa]

This is not just the 13 points but 14 and that is we will all end up on the 14th point at some stage a two tier workforce and who will they drive out first!

[k979aaa]

In all honesty did hope for an agreement of both sides ie managers vs postmen/women now we have an agreement of CEO Chairman with GS and deputy GS against not just the postmen or women but a carve up ie less managers so think on you guys girls.

[heraldmoth]

I have seen some post that Royal Mail got everything they wanted , not true , the above was in their original proposal and some of this was in their best and final.


we have changed the companies position on all the following

1. Up to 3 hour later starts. 17:00 last letter delivery.
2. Processing and network duties moving up to 3 hours later.
3. Compulsory Sundays paid at Monday to Saturday rates.
4. Owner drivers in Royal Mail pick up the growth in parcels.
5. Annualised hours linked to scan in scan out deciding your pay.
6. Flexi bank so you don’t have a finish time you have to complete. Additionally if you finished earlier determine by your PDA/ Siso then they could determine when that hours would be worked.
7. 5 Mail Centre closures.
8. Their best and final agreement only gave a no compulsory redundancies agreement until March 2023.
9. The future of Parcelforce would have been unlimited owner drivers.
10. All legacy allowances to be removed including RRIS which for over 30 thousand members would be a pay cut ranging from £6 to £35 per week.
11. Pay was dependent on the change being introduced. The lump sum was also dependent on change being introduced.
12 individual performance standards linked to PDA OA and 100 BSi indoors. Replacement of the NCI procedure to allow individuals to be sacked for poor performance.
13. No more disagreements or negotiations at local level on revisions etc.
14. New entrants not part of the collective bargaining and a stand alone workforce.


Yes the agreement is not perfect but anyone who believes Royal Mail are going to suddenly say there will be no change will have to think again.

This union whitewash is verging on harassment now! First point says 5pm last letter ffs u have left us with a 4.30 pm last letter you need to go

[taurus88]

It was a negotiating tactic from RM as you already know

This agreement will get them much of what they really wanted from this round and they will be back for more later

It’s no wonder the union is in such a bad state when they fail to understand that this is the most fundamental aspect of negotiations. Royal Mail didn’t get what they say they wanted, but they very much did get just about everything they wanted. And those things they didn’t get, they have put themselves in an incredibly strong position to get next time, having weakened the union to a point at which it is staring at oblivion going forwards.

Martin is entitled to his opinion, but I find his posts quite enlightening as to the nature of our union and it’s ability to operate in the future. I don’t know whether it’s revealing of the CWU’s naïveté throughout the negotiations, or their efforts to sell what they know is a bad deal, but neither of those things give me comfort. I would challenge the CWU to find an example of another trade union that has presented a deal as bad as this one to its members.

I’d actually be more inclined to vote yes if they were just honest in saying it’s a bad deal, they failed us, but it’s ultimately the best they could do. There’s no point trying to continue to dress it all up behind this machismo that kicked off the strikes. It’s not shameful to fail, but it is shameful to continue to portray your failure as success when anybody with eyes sees right through you.