Reps and agreement

[cpsteve]

We get to vote on this ill vote yes because i dont see any way we can get a better deal with a company that did not want to negotiate full stop. If you leave the union because of this then thats your choice id rather have them there to help me in any disputes with a manager.

[DGH]

The whole place is f****d thing is we at one time had a good job not now the asset strippers have arrived strike all you want to but that will not change the nature of the beast. People on here think they can change the world by withdrawing our labour? We tried that so what the hell are you all going to do now?

I think at least some people on here are just saying that the union has a brass neck trying to portray this agreement as anything other than abject failure.

I agree that, with a certain degree of hindsight, our strike strategy was flawed. Covid proved RM could catch up in a week and that they weren't bothered by USO failures so long as they had a pretext for failing (be that Covid absences, general absence level, strikes or whatever).

I also agree that a no vote is to some degree a leap in the dark. One might hope that the CWU would already be planning a strategy for a no vote, just in case. But in all probability all their efforts are probably going into trying to sell the surrender document as 'deal of the century'. Personally I think they need some very clear goals in the event of a 'no' vote. Increasing the financial incentive (to be honest just bumping the £500 to £1500 would probably swing it, sad to say) and/or removing sick pay changes. And perhaps actually accepting that RM will shed staff sooner or later, and getting more acceptable terms for those who want to go.

[Duesouth]

I think anybody that takes on a reps role is tough but also rewarding. Unfortunately the reps and the workers have been let down by both the company and the head of the union.

Dave and Co don't like to be criticized but have to face the facts that this time the agreement does not look.

If they had a pay offer of 6% this year and 6% the next, on top of the 2% that was already imposed I would of considered a yes. Having a bonus here and a share of the profits at a later date doesn't wash with me and nothing is set in stone.

Remember this, don't be angry with your rep when they tell you to vote Yes, look at the agreement and make your own mind up when voting.

[postslippete]

one point people are missing when the fittings go less indoor prep you wont put the mail into the fittings we could be delivering up to 90 mins extra outdoors

Yes, that's one of the reasons why the company wants later starts - so that all the mail comes in one wave rather than two and we just bundle it up with a few missorts and D2Ds

It was on here a few years ago that you would need to be an octopus to handle all the bundles of mail that you take out with you!

[timbo1234]

Why is it people who want a no vote dismiss anyone voting yes as scaremongering? Put forward a credible plan and I will look at it. I might change my view. You should not say "a no vote might JUST put pressure on RM and CWU". It might push RM to withdraw the offer and will certainly undermine the CWUs position. I understand all the anger being vented but do not act in anger when the consequences are unknown and could be dire.

In at least 4 of your posts you have mentioned "administration". No one else has to that extent so it's fair that you might be scaremongering even if you don't realise this.

Look, if Royal Mail withdraw their offer then it will likely mean that we carry on as we are for the time being with business as usual. The changes in sick pay and IHR won't start until August and the later starts/finishes next year so still plenty of time to reach a deal. Changes always take time anyway and if Royal Mail has learned anything from these recent revisions through executive action, it's best not to rush through changes.

If there's a greater outdoor span there has to be a full commitment to a shorter working week right here and now and not some words on paper that there will be a commitment to do in the future.

I'm thinking possibly a 4 day week? An Innovative shift pattern, yes, we would be working later but there's at least an element of compromise with an additional day off. RM can also keep its new sick pay policy as at least an ageing workforce will have an additional day off to recover. That's the common sense way through this dispute....

If the CWU leadership have seen the books why would they lie about it? Administration is what happens when a company has no liquidity and is unable to pay bills including wages. They cannot raise capital on the market because they cannot gurantee they can repay it while further strikes may happen. This is simple business practice. What you call scaremongering is taking the view that the if the CWU are recommending the deal there is a very good reason for that. Unless you think that RM and CWU are colluding in some kind of clandestine plot against the workforce! Your suggestion about finding alternative work patterns is commendable. However I don't think RM will re-enter negotiations and drag this dispute on even longer. They have shareholders and Ofgem breathing down their necks. RM need to get some kind of forward plan together before the next AGM. That could be entering administration so they buy time to sort out the dispute by slashing jobs and shredding T&Cs. As I said before this is a massive decision that I personally am not prepared to gamble on.

[milly]

Why is it people who want a no vote dismiss anyone voting yes as scaremongering? Put forward a credible plan and I will look at it. I might change my view. You should not say "a no vote might JUST put pressure on RM and CWU". It might push RM to withdraw the offer and will certainly undermine the CWUs position. I understand all the anger being vented but do not act in anger when the consequences are unknown and could be dire.

In at least 4 of your posts you have mentioned "administration". No one else has to that extent so it's fair that you might be scaremongering even if you don't realise this.

Look, if Royal Mail withdraw their offer then it will likely mean that we carry on as we are for the time being with business as usual. The changes in sick pay and IHR won't start until August and the later starts/finishes next year so still plenty of time to reach a deal. Changes always take time anyway and if Royal Mail has learned anything from these recent revisions through executive action, it's best not to rush through changes.

If there's a greater outdoor span there has to be a full commitment to a shorter working week right here and now and not some words on paper that there will be a commitment to do in the future.

I'm thinking possibly a 4 day week? An Innovative shift pattern, yes, we would be working later but there's at least an element of compromise with an additional day off. RM can also keep its new sick pay policy as at least an ageing workforce will have an additional day off to recover. That's the common sense way through this dispute....

If the CWU leadership have seen the books why would they lie about it? Administration is what happens when a company has no liquidity and is unable to pay bills including wages. They cannot raise capital on the market because they cannot gurantee they can repay it while further strikes may happen. This is simple business practice. What you call scaremongering is taking the view that the if the CWU are recommending the deal there is a very good reason for that. Unless you think that RM and CWU are colluding in some kind of clandestine plot against the workforce! Your suggestion about finding alternative work patterns is commendable. However I don't think RM will re-enter negotiations and drag this dispute on even longer. They have shareholders and Ofgem breathing down their necks. RM need to get some kind of forward plan together before the next AGM. That could be entering administration so they buy time to sort out the dispute by slashing jobs and shredding T&Cs. As I said before this is a massive decision that I personally am not prepared to gamble on.

Excellent post!
We are now a privatised company with many competitors trying to take our market share.
The Marxist dinosaurs on here are still living in the 70's thinking they can bring Royal Mail to their knees by striking.
Customers have other options meaning our strikes are more of an annoyance to the public rather than bringing the Country to a standstill.

[freespeech]

The agreement has to be ratified by the membership to have any standing. The CWU hierarchy cannot impose it on an unwilling membership.

Not the case...the CWU don't employ you or pay you. There is collective bargaining for CWU grades and RM have an agreement in place.

[DGH]

The agreement has to be ratified by the membership to have any standing. The CWU hierarchy cannot impose it on an unwilling membership.

Not the case...the CWU don't employ you or pay you. There is collective bargaining for CWU grades and RM have an agreement in place.

I'm not certain I follow you. The agreement now exists in principle between RM and the CWU membership. That's what collective bargaining has established. If the members do not ratify the agreement, it does not come into effect. Who pays you and who's negotiated on your behalf does not change that.

[smok3y666]

Our rep says deal is dog s**t and is voting no

[TopperGas]

Why is it people who want a no vote dismiss anyone voting yes as scaremongering? Put forward a credible plan and I will look at it. I might change my view. You should not say "a no vote might JUST put pressure on RM and CWU". It might push RM to withdraw the offer and will certainly undermine the CWUs position. I understand all the anger being vented but do not act in anger when the consequences are unknown and could be dire.

In at least 4 of your posts you have mentioned "administration". No one else has to that extent so it's fair that you might be scaremongering even if you don't realise this.

Look, if Royal Mail withdraw their offer then it will likely mean that we carry on as we are for the time being with business as usual. The changes in sick pay and IHR won't start until August and the later starts/finishes next year so still plenty of time to reach a deal. Changes always take time anyway and if Royal Mail has learned anything from these recent revisions through executive action, it's best not to rush through changes.

If there's a greater outdoor span there has to be a full commitment to a shorter working week right here and now and not some words on paper that there will be a commitment to do in the future.

I'm thinking possibly a 4 day week? An Innovative shift pattern, yes, we would be working later but there's at least an element of compromise with an additional day off. RM can also keep its new sick pay policy as at least an ageing workforce will have an additional day off to recover. That's the common sense way through this dispute....

If the CWU leadership have seen the books why would they lie about it? Administration is what happens when a company has no liquidity and is unable to pay bills including wages. They cannot raise capital on the market because they cannot gurantee they can repay it while further strikes may happen. This is simple business practice. What you call scaremongering is taking the view that the if the CWU are recommending the deal there is a very good reason for that. Unless you think that RM and CWU are colluding in some kind of clandestine plot against the workforce! Your suggestion about finding alternative work patterns is commendable. However I don't think RM will re-enter negotiations and drag this dispute on even longer. They have shareholders and Ofgem breathing down their necks. RM need to get some kind of forward plan together before the next AGM. That could be entering administration so they buy time to sort out the dispute by slashing jobs and shredding T&Cs. As I said before this is a massive decision that I personally am not prepared to gamble on.

KW clearly told the DT RM had a £1.8B war fund to smash the CWU, assuming he was being truthful then does that sound like something a company about to go into administration would say? Plus why on earth did it give £500m+ to shareholders if finances were so bleak?

I sense that extra money DW is hoping to get from RM is money they'll pay out if a No votes is looking likely.

[chickenwittle]

Clueless union could have negotiated some sweeteners to get the deal through.35 hour week , better shift patterns to get 1 in 2 Saturdays off etc. I see no positives in this deal , later finish times , worse sick pay terms , worse ihr etc. truly woeful.

[timbo1234]

Why is it people who want a no vote dismiss anyone voting yes as scaremongering? Put forward a credible plan and I will look at it. I might change my view. You should not say "a no vote might JUST put pressure on RM and CWU". It might push RM to withdraw the offer and will certainly undermine the CWUs position. I understand all the anger being vented but do not act in anger when the consequences are unknown and could be dire.

In at least 4 of your posts you have mentioned "administration". No one else has to that extent so it's fair that you might be scaremongering even if you don't realise this.

Look, if Royal Mail withdraw their offer then it will likely mean that we carry on as we are for the time being with business as usual. The changes in sick pay and IHR won't start until August and the later starts/finishes next year so still plenty of time to reach a deal. Changes always take time anyway and if Royal Mail has learned anything from these recent revisions through executive action, it's best not to rush through changes.

If there's a greater outdoor span there has to be a full commitment to a shorter working week right here and now and not some words on paper that there will be a commitment to do in the future.

I'm thinking possibly a 4 day week? An Innovative shift pattern, yes, we would be working later but there's at least an element of compromise with an additional day off. RM can also keep its new sick pay policy as at least an ageing workforce will have an additional day off to recover. That's the common sense way through this dispute....

If the CWU leadership have seen the books why would they lie about it? Administration is what happens when a company has no liquidity and is unable to pay bills including wages. They cannot raise capital on the market because they cannot gurantee they can repay it while further strikes may happen. This is simple business practice. What you call scaremongering is taking the view that the if the CWU are recommending the deal there is a very good reason for that. Unless you think that RM and CWU are colluding in some kind of clandestine plot against the workforce! Your suggestion about finding alternative work patterns is commendable. However I don't think RM will re-enter negotiations and drag this dispute on even longer. They have shareholders and Ofgem breathing down their necks. RM need to get some kind of forward plan together before the next AGM. That could be entering administration so they buy time to sort out the dispute by slashing jobs and shredding T&Cs. As I said before this is a massive decision that I personally am not prepared to gamble on.

KW clearly told the DT RM had a £1.8B war fund to smash the CWU, assuming he was being truthful then does that sound like something a company about to go into administration would say? Plus why on earth did it give £500m+ to shareholders if finances were so bleak?

I sense that extra money DW is hoping to get from RM is money they'll pay out if a No votes is looking likely.

The money paid to shareholders was a disgrace. 100% agree with you. As regards the so called war fund I thought at the time this was untrue. The DT later published a withdrawal notice on the article saying it was taken out of context by a rogue journalist. I don’t think a no vote or even a threat of one would get RM back to the negotiating table. The CWU must have a very good reason for recommending this deal. If they are not willing to carry on the dispute there is something very serious that is known by them. I personally am not willing to take a chance on a no vote. Some people feel that strongly about it they will vote no. The difference is a yes vote means we go to fight the next battle - a no vote means we have no idea of the future and it's all down to RM as to what they do.I genuinely think RM will immediately withdraw the offer and force through the changes they want. Employ casuals and agency staff and pressure the government to abandon the USO. Then it becomes a war of attrition with the CWU made impotent by the no vote.

[postslippete]

If the CWU leadership have seen the books why would they lie about it? Administration is what happens when a company has no liquidity and is unable to pay bills including wages. They cannot raise capital on the market because they cannot gurantee they can repay it while further strikes may happen. This is simple business practice. What you call scaremongering is taking the view that the if the CWU are recommending the deal there is a very good reason for that. Unless you think that RM and CWU are colluding in some kind of clandestine plot against the workforce! Your suggestion about finding alternative work patterns is commendable. However I don't think RM will re-enter negotiations and drag this dispute on even longer. They have shareholders and Ofgem breathing down their necks. RM need to get some kind of forward plan together before the next AGM. That could be entering administration so they buy time to sort out the dispute by slashing jobs and shredding T&Cs. As I said before this is a massive decision that I personally am not prepared to gamble on.

Did you know that OfGem regulate gas and electricity. Are you sure that you are on the right forum?

I can forgive obvious mistakes but it is now the 5th post where you have mentioned the dreaded "Admin" word! Before Royal Mail can enter into administration they need the governments approval first. Now read this article below:


https://www.proactiveinvestors.co.uk/co ... 01521.html


If RM boast of having a £1.7 billion war chest, whether that's in available liquidity or whatever, what government is ever going to believe that Royal Mail should be placed into administration?? The whole point of administration is if the company cannot pay off its debts and here it is offering posties an instant pay rise and a lump sum to get a deal over the line. Do you understand what I'm saying? I don't think you do, so let me repeat it for you...no company that is facing administration would ever give their workers an instant pay rise. The changes that Royal Mail want would come into effect much later - the sick pay changes at the beginning of August, the seasonal variation of hours in Autumn and the later starts and finishes in 2024.

Going into administration is a LAST RESORT. Don't forget the government actually helped Royal Mail with all these Covid kits and allowed them to continue working during the pandemic so that they could make all these profits the year before. Remind who was in charge of the Test and Trace app? How embarrassing....

Also, don't you think it's strange how IDS share price keeps going up in spite of Royal Mail's financial position? All that matters now is that the Union don't call any further strikes as that really won't help our cause. We don't need to add to any more of Royal Mail's current financial losses of £400 to £450 million.

There will always be scope for further talks and everyone needs to accept that there will be changes. The Royal Mail of the past have given us the pay rises, but not got the change that they wanted. Both Royal Mail and the CWU desperately need an agreement - but it has to be the right agreement. I believe that we do have a choice and like I said when Royal Mail try and force through changes like they have with the revisions, the operation usually goes t*ts up. Nobody wants that. Not Royal Mail, not the CWU and certainly not us posties.

[postslippete]

As regards the so called war fund I thought at the time this was untrue. The DT later published a withdrawal notice on the article saying it was taken out of context by a rogue journalist.

If it was untrue then Royal Mail would have sued the Daily Telegraph for libel

But they didn't

Instead what Royal Mail meant is that they actually had £1.7 billion in "available liquidity" thus confirming the company's strong financial balance sheet.

[enskied]

We get to vote on this ill vote yes because i dont see any way we can get a better deal with a company that did not want to negotiate full stop. If you leave the union because of this then thats your choice id rather have them there to help me in any disputes with a manager.

You make no sense to me. You just carry on knowing that both parties have s**t on you.
And will again and soon.