23rd December

[kookoo32]

I hope whoever the union consult for legal advice on this is better than who they consulted on the rolling strikes as they made an ar$e of that.

[cher2450]

That's not guess work, it would be discrimination to sack some staff that strike but not all. Also it would NOT be automatically fair to sack staff for striking on 24th Dec as RM would have to prove at tribunal that they have gone to great lengths to resolve the strike situation and they have not done that, so tribunal would likely vote in favour of the employee.

Also to sack staff on Xmas eve for taking part in strike action would NOT be a good PR look for RM. Think that would be outrageous.

[redlen]

Yet again you are putting words into peoples mouth with guess work.

Nobody will be dismissed on the 24 December. All employers have to follow a dismissal process as to the ACAS code of practice or any dismissal would be unfair.

Your lack of empoyment law knowledge is evident

[cher2450]

If they were sacked for striking on 24th Dec (after the 12 week protected zone) regardless when (ON 24TH OR AFTER) they received p45 its still being sacked on the 24th Dec, that's what people Inc myself are scared of. There are 3 posties in my family who are striking and it would have a massive impact if that were to happen. Obviously I don't know if RM would stoop that low but its a major worry. Longest serving postie is my sis with over 20 years on the job. Why does RM even have to do this to posties.

[redlen]

Yet again you are guessing

Summary dismissal will be unfair

You have to first go through a fact finding, formal and then appeals process before dismissal.
You are then given the option of instant dismissal with or without notice. That then is the final day of service, not the 24 December with calculating the three months qualifying period with an employment tribunal claim.

[cher2450]

Interesting OK, thank you for the info, have to have the last word though! It's still means possibly getting sacked over striking on Xmas eve if all did happen like you say (ie investigatory meeting etc, though formalised much later if proven justified by RM)....sad days.

[redlen]

Yes you are correct, if you go on strike after the 23 December and the legal protections exhausted, then yes they can dismiss you.

It is very concerning the CWU are keeping quiet and ignoring this issue. People are very worried and scared for their jobs and need some sort of confirmation.

The simple fact being the CWU has fracked up with not instigating a second ballot a month ago in continuing those legal protections.

[Pidleypoo]

That is simply not true and pure guess work on your part.

Please tell me where it states they will have to dismiss every employee who takes strike action after legal protections have been exhausted?

People are dismissed for breaching their contracts of employment, that can be for many reasons such as disciplinary record, sickness etc.

The employer in this example is free to dismiss or retain any employee they like on past conduct issues. The only issue might be if an employee who was dismissed was a trade union rep at the time.

And there are no cost involved with employment tribunals so hardly massively expensive

That’s your view , let’s see shall we.

[Halfhappy]

That is simply not true and pure guess work on your part.

Please tell me where it states they will have to dismiss every employee who takes strike action after legal protections have been exhausted?

People are dismissed for breaching their contracts of employment, that can be for many reasons such as disciplinary record, sickness etc.

The employer in this example is free to dismiss or retain any employee they like on past conduct issues. The only issue might be if an employee who was dismissed was a trade union rep at the time.

And there are no cost involved with employment tribunals so hardly massively expensive

Let's be honest here, you're guessing and assuming too, we all are.

[Halfhappy]

It states the legal protections end after 12 weeks of balloted action once ACAS has been involved.

If you continue with industrial action without a fresh ballot to get a further 12 weeks of protections, you can be dismissed for breach of contract and that dismissal automatically fair.

So, originally you said that you have to ballot after 12wks, if ACAS is involved, that is the law. That would mean the ballot is no longer valid after 12wks. To me, that's not true. The law doesn't say anywhere a reballot must take place? I think most people are aware that, after 12 wks you lose legal protections, if the employer has tried to settle the dispute, hence this thread.

It uses asking ACAS to help find a solution as an example. It seems that this part is being taken as a rule of thumb, that any involvement with ACAS is automatically the employer trying to settle. It actually doesn't say ACAS has to be involved, it just says asked. Forget ACAS, for a moment, would the employer simply making a stupid offer count as an attempt to settle? The whole thing seems incredibly vague, and probably purposely so. I don't think the answer is as clear cut, and don't know whether it's been actually implemented in a real world major dispute. Does anyone have any knowledge of strikers being dismissed under the 12 week legislation?   I'm also wondering where it stipulates reballoting for the same dispute would rectify the 12wk issue? Or, is that just another assumption?

I find it difficult to imagine that 115,000 union members would be dismiss in one day, and find it even harder to believe they could select certain members for dismissal, when 115,000 other employees would be guilty of the same thing. That would surely be unfair dismissal.

Its clear none of us are legal experts, so it pretty futile bickering over this. What I think we can agree on is there needs to be some clarity, over this matter, perhaps the lack of it shows just how much of a grey area this is. Regardless, of the views, and takes, of many people, this is clearly an issue for many members. It's continually being brought up on here, and on twitter posts, etc... Its clearly becoming a concern, and needs attention.

[thefox]

Yes you are correct, if you go on strike after the 23 December and the legal protections exhausted, then yes they can dismiss you.

It is very concerning the CWU are keeping quiet and ignoring this issue. People are very worried and scared for their jobs and need some sort of confirmation.

The simple fact being the CWU has fracked up with not instigating a second ballot a month ago in continuing those legal protections.

Agree with you,the cwu need to come out an address the issue or risk people crossing the line on the 24th.

[hfcbkk1875]

If the pay ballot runs out around the 23/24 this month everyone is assuming that these days are on the pay ballot ,don't panic I'm sure the union will have it on the change ballot as that doesn't run out untill late January so there is no problem with taking action on these days .
A re ballot on both pay and change can then be organised in less than 6weeks .
I know it's a stressfull time just now being shat on at work on a daily basis but we have to stand United in our fight against the greedy bastards that run RM.

Stay strong posties ,walk the walk and keep your head held high .
To greedy bastards that run this company your day will come and sooner than you think .
25 years a postie in Scotland's capital .

[Acca Dacca]

Remember that the union can call off a particular strike date at short notice......

[guardianangel]

Can someone from the union give a definite answer otherwise you will get a lot of people not risking it

Martin Walsh mentioned this a week or so ago in another thread, he said, legal advice will be sought. On the government website it states, you can be sacked after 12 weeks if certain conditions are met. It's on the government website, it is not gossip, it is not best guess, it is the law of the land. Can he do it, probably yes, will he do it? He has said there will be no fire and rehire. Do I believe him? No. We will soon find out and unfortunately, RM have much more money to throw at courts and legal departments, lawyers etc than the union do. Pretty much everyone that makes these decisions about us on the PEC are just postman elected to their jobs by us. It is out of our hands and no point worrying about it. Dave Ward talks about being in this for the long haul if necessary, I am hoping to be out very soon. All I know is, a lot of people in my office have told me, they will give up if this isn't resolved soon. My personal belief is, he is running down the clock, the shareholders are willing to take a hit this year to break us. If they win this, the losses they take this year will have been worth it. All this is just my opinion, it's not right or wrong, just an opinion. I know, I am beyond caring, the whole lot can crash and burn for all I care now. I don't care that we are being told to prioritise parcels over letters, that is an issue for the regulator, RM pay the fines not me. I go to work, do what I am instructed to do and go home, if the place burns down I don't care. If all the vans fall apart and I have nothing to drive, I don't care.If the PDA's don't work, I don't care. If we don't reach an agreement, I don't care, lets be honest, he has torn them up so they are not worth the paper they are written on. If people deciedd to give up and cross the picket line, I don't care. I won't be joining them, I am fortunate, I can afford to strike and I am enjoying having all these days off. If we lose business because of it, guess what, I don't care.

im with you i couldnt give a toss,and will never cross that line.

[Surreypostie]

Nobody is getting sacked. Worse case would be a new contract put infront of you. Unlikely as ST has said himself, there will be no fire and rehire.