UPDATE ON NATIONAL TALKS

[dvbuk55]

Well this looks like the Nero complex, fiddling whilst what's left of Rome incinerates.

I strongly suspect there will be an update tomorrow when the PEC are on the way home and the CWU closes its doors for the weekend. They'll be trying to couch it in terms
that make it sound like the sale of the century..........I meant deal of the century of course.

On the other hand it could be a pot of gold and diamonds.....................though I would think that's less likely than me spending a night with J Lo and Keira Knightley in the Hollywood Hilton.

[fishtank]

It's in the hands of the members, every day I'm getting requests for rule 13 ballots and told to stuff the money.

The CWU locally has 'played the game' and 'kept the Peace' despite no real CWU involvement in a non existent 6 step process. No release for reps apart from 1 hour off IPS/Prep. Organised chaos after revisions go in on unagreed Georoute duties and a manipulated IWT. Shedloads of overtime pumped in. Bullying to take workload. Performance levels continually monitored and openly criticised. Sick levels rocketing. And few benefits to staff. 7am to 3pm Monday to Saturday and no one in four Saturdays
unless at the expense of less than full time staff looking for full time hours.

Half hour Weekly Resource Meeting where Rep told what's being laspsed.
MGV/Drivers doing former D2D denied delivery supplement.

Increased bullying and harrassment by Managerial grades but only ever OPG grades conducted.
We have had enough - Time to ballot I say.

This is a far more realistic picture of the situation as i have experienced it.
I understand my experience is limited but i am in contact with a fair few reps and members in our area and they report exactly the same situation and the same feelings from members.
For some reason either this message is not getting through to HQ or more worrying we are being ignored and isolated because our situation does not fit the "big picture".
To be honest...i'm sick of it,partly the constant fighting with managers but mostly the feeling that we are fighting not only alone but against HQ who appear to view us as nothing more than an irritant.
I think either we ballot shortly or we stop pretending we are an Industrial Union,set up a Staff Association...pack up,go home and let them do their worst.
We are either one or the other...we can't be both.

[DGP1]

Well this looks like the Nero complex, fiddling whilst what's left of Rome incinerates.

I strongly suspect there will be an update tomorrow when the PEC are on the way home and the CWU closes its doors for the weekend. They'll be trying to couch it in terms
that make it sound like the sale of the century..........I meant deal of the century of course.

On the other hand it could be a pot of gold and diamonds.....................though I would think that's less likely than me spending a night with J Lo and Keira Knightley in the Hollywood Hilton.

You'd probably end up in Paris Hilton

[dvbuk55]

Well this looks like the Nero complex, fiddling whilst what's left of Rome incinerates.

I strongly suspect there will be an update tomorrow when the PEC are on the way home and the CWU closes its doors for the weekend. They'll be trying to couch it in terms
that make it sound like the sale of the century..........I meant deal of the century of course.

On the other hand it could be a pot of gold and diamonds.....................though I would think that's less likely than me spending a night with J Lo and Keira Knightley in the Hollywood Hilton.

You'd probably end up in Paris Hilton

Well any port in a storm as they say ..................I just hope she doesn't video it unless she has a wide angle lens

I once stayed in the Hong Kong Hilton with a young air hostess - then of course I was young myself, under 25. Christ that's 40 years ago

[clashcityrocker]

I once stayed in the Hong Kong Hilton with a young air hostess - then of course I was young myself, under 25. Christ that's 400 years ago

Does she have a sister?

[dvbuk55]

I once stayed in the Hong Kong Hilton with a young air hostess - then of course I was young myself, under 25. Christ that's 400 years ago

Does she have a sister?

D'you know something clash, I can't even remember her name, only that she was pretty and drunk and it was her room because I certainly couldn't afford it - the China Fleet Club was the best I could afford and on hard times the S&S, which for the most part wasn't air conditioned - those truly were the days my friend
It certainly feels like 400 years ago.

[mondeoman1]

It's in the hands of the members, every day I'm getting requests for rule 13 ballots and told to stuff the money.

The CWU locally has 'played the game' and 'kept the Peace' despite no real CWU involvement in a non existent 6 step process. No release for reps apart from 1 hour off IPS/Prep. Organised chaos after revisions go in on unagreed Georoute duties and a manipulated IWT. Shedloads of overtime pumped in. Bullying to take workload. Performance levels continually monitored and openly criticised. Sick levels rocketing. And few benefits to staff. 7am to 3pm Monday to Saturday and no one in four Saturdays
unless at the expense of less than full time staff looking for full time hours.

Half hour Weekly Resource Meeting where Rep told what's being laspsed.
MGV/Drivers doing former D2D denied delivery supplement.

Increased bullying and harrassment by Managerial grades but only ever OPG grades conducted.
We have had enough - Time to ballot I say.

This is a far more realistic picture of the situation as i have experienced it.
I understand my experience is limited but i am in contact with a fair few reps and members in our area and they report exactly the same situation and the same feelings from members.
For some reason either this message is not getting through to HQ or more worrying we are being ignored and isolated because our situation does not fit the "big picture".
To be honest...i'm sick of it,partly the constant fighting with managers but mostly the feeling that we are fighting not only alone but against HQ who appear to view us as nothing more than an irritant.
I think either we ballot shortly or we stop pretending we are an Industrial Union,set up a Staff Association...pack up,go home and let them do their worst.
We are either one or the other...we can't be both.

[AnotherLimey]

It's protection most of the members want dingo,not pots of gold or diamonds.
The attendance procedure is abused on a daily basis.
The conduct code is abused on a daily basis.
BSI,Indoor Flow and World Class Mail are abused to show savings that aren't really there.
The delivery agreement is an over complex sham.
Royal Mail management lie to the union at all levels with complete impunity.
Hours are being stripped from both delivery and processing for no other reason than to cut the bottom line.
And you think that we should be happy with this?

That is spot on Fish, we get instructions from above about this and about that but what you listed above is the reality of what frontline reps are dealing with, you put in dissagrements and get little or no help, frustrating to say the least!

[dvbuk55]

Well they'd better be getting their arse in gear our Rep was told today that new duties will be displayed and the 1 in 3 Saturdays, from the BT 2010 agreement in October 2010, will be made into 1 in 4 Saturdays under the new revision without any input whatsoever - this IS the reality of an agreement looser than a hookers knickers. As has been said before whilst these no marks are chattering the real workers are getting it up the backside.

Disagreements? - our rep has actually forgotten how many he's put in and is now seeking instructions for a ballot.

[Budfrog]

There is and has never been an agreement to reach 100BSI. In fact the word 100 and BSI is not contained in any part of the Business Transformation agreement.

Yes some units have agreed it and some branch`s and divisional reps may have even advised them to agree it.

But and it is a big but , the CWU have come out and told all units not to agree 100BSI and that when you do negotations that there is no requirement to go from say 70BSI to 100 or even to 90. Its a negotation. Of course management want you to give up as many hours as possible it is our role to give as little as we can whilst getting an acceptable overall agreement.

I do not believe that any units in it's right mind should agree anything higher than 75BSI ... which is the standard for a worker on day rate and which in general has been used for setting targets in Mail Centres for manual work. In the same way that RM should expect the same output from an OPG on one walk to the next, it should also set the same targets for one function to the next (Delivery/Coll, Processing and Dist).

Uniformity of workrate should have been one of the building blocks of BT 2010!

[Phantom]

Phatom I know I should not bite but lets have a look at your list of things you say the union gave up which in itself is not factual.

First Saturday premium for those of you who did not know is that we used to get a little over £2 premiumn when you work on Saturdays. This premiumn was only paid when you work on duty on a saturday. The union convinced Royal Mail to put the sum of this money into basic pay. As much as I opposed the Way forward basic pay went up from £201 to £238 in one move. Yes UPAP was consoldiated into basic pay along with such things as improved holiday pay , driving allowance , NDA , double time on saturdays etc. But remember you got you basic pay 52 weeks per year and your whole pay was then pensionable.

Now the PHG grade did go , but every PHG kept the diffeential in pay and kept their UPAP payment on top. Even now there are exPHGs who recieve appoxmately 20% more on shift allowance , overtime etc on a reserved rights basis. Equally there are just as many postmen and women working in what would have been prior to the way forward PHG work.

Driving allowance. There are many drivers who still recieve £6 reserve payment even if they dont now drive. Eqaully the way forward agreed a new allowance which meant many drivers suddenly went from being paid an allowance every time they drove to the £23 new allowance whcih was paid 52 weeks per year.

I have been in the job for over 27 years and can remember when all over time over 12 hours was double time. But the reality is over time is not at the same level as it was in delivery offices and mail centres 11 years ago and it was the right move to put that into basic pay.

Again I have been in the job long enough to remember when households were considered as totally ilrelvant and spare staff and reserves did them unless the official walk holder wanted them. It is also bizzare that we used to have a yearly motion calling for the union to pull out of the door to door agreement including the payment. Now it is true that some people did not lose out on door to door but the question is would Royal Mail have continued to pay the unit payment moving forward as they indicated they could not sustain the product with the lack of ability to grow or improve quality.

The second delivery going. Well lets be totally honest here , the majoirity of offices did not have streaming agreements and took everything out on the first delivery in fact we had over 90% of the mail going on the first delivery which was scheduled to be completed by 0930 but was not being adhered too. The reality is that those offices who did not stream the mail so they had enough to warrent 1 over 1 second deliveries then they were getting more part timers introduced and some offices had for every first delivery they had 5 second deliveries. Now most people believed we made the right move to go to one delivery and the deal included an increase of £26.28 and a five day week for the first time.

The ending of the final salary scheme . I do think we should have fought harder on this issue. But the pressure on pensions is massive and even if we had kept the final salary we would still have a challenge to keep it after next year. However you have remember all of our past service up to 2008 will still be based on your final salary when you retire. The other issue is that the Care Scheme is currently performing well and has the advantage of not forcing people to go on nights torwards their last few years to improve their pension. As the care scheme builds up a yearly pot and can include lump sums into its calculations.

The ending of job and knock , well it was the CWU who got it written into the agreement in 2003 but how can a union jusitfy keeping on saying to management we want to improve members terms and conditions but we all want staff to be able to work less hours as they happen to finish their delivery earlier. It becomes a very differcult arguement to work. Like the old shorter working week union meeting where you say we want to get a 35 hour shorter working week for every one and some shouts I am not working 35 hours for anyone.

The list of benefits and safeguards the union has got is endless. Basic pay has improved , paid meal reliefs are still there , annual leave entitlements are up there with the best in the business , bank holiday payments , shift allowances , driving allowances , TPM allowances , Leadership allowances , Scottish distant island payment , London Weighting payments , RRIS payments , Time Bonus payment , PBS bonus , Christmas bonus payment , lump sum payments , Reserved rghts payments , Supplements for delivery , mail centres and distributions , Professional drivers pay , agreed pay arrangements , harmonsation of part time employees well ahead of the law , conduct code procedure which is acas improved , an attendance procudres which allows for an employer to go through 3 stages before dismissal , ill health retirement procedure , harrassment procedures agreements , grievence procedure. National agreements which restrict what Royal Mail wish to do. Sunday over time arrangements , over time arrangements and SA. The list is endless all the things people comlain the union has lost was gained by the union and then it then believed that the time had come to negotiate something different.

What a load of bollocks,
I won't argue with you but lets just say saturday premium was £12 and not £2 so as far as facts are concerned you're talking crap! the people on here who have more than 15 years service all know!

[Phantom]

And whatever happened to the "we want a definitive answer by the 16th of January or else" - well it is now the 25th January and else what? Well it would seem that there is llittle for RM to fear from seemingly empty threats - because what really happens is RM make placatory statements and lo and behold the rabbits in the headlights again. I've heard the statement "grow a pair" time and time again and I really think it is time that those at the table did.

When dingo relates a long winded reply on past glories don't you just know that bad news is around the corner - the threat to pull D2D payment, etc etc has the union ever called their bluff and said do it, not on your life - they're like a six week old puppy rolling over to have its belly tickled.

Dvbuk sometimes you are so hurtful its like being hit by a wet sponge. I think personally you and a few others on here would not be happy if the union delivered you a pot of gold with some diamonds with it.

Oh we would, cos we'd all f**k off and leave this shitty job

[DGP1]

And whatever happened to the "we want a definitive answer by the 16th of January or else" - well it is now the 25th January and else what? Well it would seem that there is llittle for RM to fear from seemingly empty threats - because what really happens is RM make placatory statements and lo and behold the rabbits in the headlights again. I've heard the statement "grow a pair" time and time again and I really think it is time that those at the table did.

When dingo relates a long winded reply on past glories don't you just know that bad news is around the corner - the threat to pull D2D payment, etc etc has the union ever called their bluff and said do it, not on your life - they're like a six week old puppy rolling over to have its belly tickled.

Dvbuk sometimes you are so hurtful its like being hit by a wet sponge. I think personally you and a few others on here would not be happy if the union delivered you a pot of gold with some diamonds with it.

Oh we would, cos we'd all f**k off and leave this shitty job

[dvbuk55]

I'm going to have a nice locket made for the love of my life and a diamond ring, buy a Rolls Royce with a chauffeur and a large house with servants - how big is the pot by the way because there's quite a number of things on my wish list - as it is at the moment I'm wishing I can the fill the cars tank and eat every other day.

[Martin Walsh]

Phatom Saturday premium was £2.24 pence per hour fact I could even dig out the relvant pay details if you like !!