Annualised hours

[redlen]

You do that, they will suspend you

You follow the grievance procedure and either accept and continue to work under protest, or resign and claim constructive dismissal after the changes, one or the other

[redlen]

But this debate is going nowhere

People still have not answered my last question

Exactly what prescribed and implied terms do people think are changing in your contracts of employment?

I can't see any, so to continue this line of questions is irrelevant and pure speculation.

[Barnacle]

But this debate is going nowhere

People still have not answered my last question

Exactly what prescribed and implied terms do people think are changing in your contracts of employment?

I can't see any, so to continue this line of questions is irrelevant and pure speculation.

Can you point me to where it states in our contract that we will be working annualised hours and banking hours? Such a significant working arrangement is surely mentioned somewhere.

[yellowbelly]

Government. Says no

.gov initially says no changes must be agreed but then later on on the website pages it says:

https://www.gov.uk/your-employment-cont ... h-problems

Making a change without agreement
If an employer makes a change to a contract without getting agreement (including by using flexibility clauses unreasonably), employees may:

have the right to refuse to work under the new conditions
say that they’re working any new terms under protest, and are treating the change as a breach of contract
resign and claim constructive dismissal
be able to take a case to an employment tribunal
In Northern Ireland an employment tribunal is known as an ‘industrial tribunal’.

If an employee disagrees with new terms and conditions but does not say or do anything, this may count as agreeing to the changes.

So you can state that you are refusing to work under the new conditions as they have not been agreed and we are currently in dispute.

Depends what they're asking us to do I suppose in terms of changes to contracts. Do people actually know what their contract
says - and if your contract was signed a million years ago, do subsequent CWU/RM agreements 'update' that contract?

All my contract states is my weekly hours (not times of the day) and office, that's it. The T&C's have a paragraph that
mentions collective agreements:

There are current collective agreements, which may relate to the terms and conditions of employment contained
in this statement. These may be seen on request from HR Service via your line manager. You will be subject to the rules,
notices, instructions and other directions issued from time to time with regard to your employment.

[sindba]

But this debate is going nowhere

People still have not answered my last question

Exactly what prescribed and implied terms do people think are changing in your contracts of employment?

I can't see any, so to continue this line of questions is irrelevant and pure speculation.

Just seen a thing in mine that says we'll all be sacked for striking after 12 weeks. Can you confirm?

[sindba]

That is why, when an employer makes a contractual change, you have three options:

1/ Accept the contractual change
2/ Do not accept the change and work under protest
3/ Resign and claim constructive dismissal

You only have to look at TESCO, and British Gas with contractual changes imposed. As long as sufficient notice of that, they give change is all that is required and objectively justified.

Won't we all be sacked for striking on 24th Dec anyway? You said we would, with your expertise in employment law

[Barnacle]

Government. Says no

.gov initially says no changes must be agreed but then later on on the website pages it says:

https://www.gov.uk/your-employment-cont ... h-problems

Making a change without agreement
If an employer makes a change to a contract without getting agreement (including by using flexibility clauses unreasonably), employees may:

have the right to refuse to work under the new conditions
say that they’re working any new terms under protest, and are treating the change as a breach of contract
resign and claim constructive dismissal
be able to take a case to an employment tribunal
In Northern Ireland an employment tribunal is known as an ‘industrial tribunal’.

If an employee disagrees with new terms and conditions but does not say or do anything, this may count as agreeing to the changes.

So you can state that you are refusing to work under the new conditions as they have not been agreed and we are currently in dispute.

Depends what they're asking us to do I suppose in terms of changes to contracts. Do people actually know what their contract
says - and if your contract was signed a million years ago, do subsequent CWU/RM agreements 'update' that contract?

All my contract states is my weekly hours (not times of the day) and office, that's it. The T&C's have a paragraph that
mentions collective agreements:

There are current collective agreements, which may relate to the terms and conditions of employment contained
in this statement. These may be seen on request from HR Service via your line manager. You will be subject to the rules,
notices, instructions and other directions issued from time to time with regard to your employment.

You have to state you disagree with the changes. You have to verbalise your disagreement. Otherwise, your silence is taken as agreeing to the changes.

I don’t agree with the changes and will say so and demand that they are put in writing so that I know exactly what is being forced upon me.

[redlen]

That is why, when an employer makes a contractual change, you have three options:

1/ Accept the contractual change
2/ Do not accept the change and work under protest
3/ Resign and claim constructive dismissal

You only have to look at TESCO, and British Gas with contractual changes imposed. As long as sufficient notice of that, they give change is all that is required and objectively justified.

Won't we all be sacked for striking on 24th Dec anyway? You said we would, with your expertise in employment law

Never said you would be sacked, so kindly refrain from putting words into my mouth. Stated what legislation dictates and a possibility termination of your contract what the law allows. There is a difference between Would and Can be dismissed.

[redlen]

Government. Says no

.gov initially says no changes must be agreed but then later on on the website pages it says:

https://www.gov.uk/your-employment-cont ... h-problems

Making a change without agreement
If an employer makes a change to a contract without getting agreement (including by using flexibility clauses unreasonably), employees may:

have the right to refuse to work under the new conditions
say that they’re working any new terms under protest, and are treating the change as a breach of contract
resign and claim constructive dismissal
be able to take a case to an employment tribunal
In Northern Ireland an employment tribunal is known as an ‘industrial tribunal’.

If an employee disagrees with new terms and conditions but does not say or do anything, this may count as agreeing to the changes.

So you can state that you are refusing to work under the new conditions as they have not been agreed and we are currently in dispute.

Depends what they're asking us to do I suppose in terms of changes to contracts. Do people actually know what their contract
says - and if your contract was signed a million years ago, do subsequent CWU/RM agreements 'update' that contract?

All my contract states is my weekly hours (not times of the day) and office, that's it. The T&C's have a paragraph that
mentions collective agreements:

There are current collective agreements, which may relate to the terms and conditions of employment contained
in this statement. These may be seen on request from HR Service via your line manager. You will be subject to the rules,
notices, instructions and other directions issued from time to time with regard to your employment.

You have to state you disagree with the changes. You have to verbalise your disagreement. Otherwise, your silence is taken as agreeing to the changes.

I don’t agree with the changes and will say so and demand that they are put in writing so that I know exactly what is being forced upon me.

The problem with that is they have designated the CWU to make that decision with contractual changes through collective bargaining. Does not matter you being a unon member or not. The terms do not have to be put into wrinting unless express terms as they will be made avaliable through a national agreement.

[Barnacle]

Government. Says no

.gov initially says no changes must be agreed but then later on on the website pages it says:

https://www.gov.uk/your-employment-cont ... h-problems

Making a change without agreement
If an employer makes a change to a contract without getting agreement (including by using flexibility clauses unreasonably), employees may:

have the right to refuse to work under the new conditions
say that they’re working any new terms under protest, and are treating the change as a breach of contract
resign and claim constructive dismissal
be able to take a case to an employment tribunal
In Northern Ireland an employment tribunal is known as an ‘industrial tribunal’.

If an employee disagrees with new terms and conditions but does not say or do anything, this may count as agreeing to the changes.

So you can state that you are refusing to work under the new conditions as they have not been agreed and we are currently in dispute.

Depends what they're asking us to do I suppose in terms of changes to contracts. Do people actually know what their contract
says - and if your contract was signed a million years ago, do subsequent CWU/RM agreements 'update' that contract?

All my contract states is my weekly hours (not times of the day) and office, that's it. The T&C's have a paragraph that
mentions collective agreements:

There are current collective agreements, which may relate to the terms and conditions of employment contained
in this statement. These may be seen on request from HR Service via your line manager. You will be subject to the rules,
notices, instructions and other directions issued from time to time with regard to your employment.

You have to state you disagree with the changes. You have to verbalise your disagreement. Otherwise, your silence is taken as agreeing to the changes.

I don’t agree with the changes and will say so and demand that they are put in writing so that I know exactly what is being forced upon me.

The problem with that is they have designated the CWU to make that decision with contractual changes through collective bargaining. Does not matter you being a unon member or not. The terms do not have to be put into wrinting unless express terms as they will be made avaliable through a national agreement.

You are tying yourself in knots here to be contradictory. There is no agreement, we are in dispute about the changes they are trying to impose so, yes you do need to state you do not agree with the changes and you can also demand that they are put in writing because these are not minor changes.

[mjd24]

I think it is more important than ever to never ever come back and sign out early. If there are zero early finishes, there is no time to be banked.

I don't think you are getting the banking of hours, you will be told what time to come back mail or no mail

Correct.

[Dexydog]

Redlen wants someone to say executive action is being used so the union is being bypassed
To which he will reply the union broke any agreements that were in place by going on strike.
It's a minefield; RM know it, the union know it, and we're piggy in the middle.
Get any changes in writing, if you don't like them resign and try your luck in court.
RM know full well the majority will either leave in protest or grumble a bit but ultimately go along with it
Either way RM win.
The union needs to call an all out strike or this is lost.
Redlen just says things no-one wants to hear.
There I said it.

[mjd24]

That is why, when an employer makes a contractual change, you have three options:

1/ Accept the contractual change
2/ Do not accept the change and work under protest
3/ Resign and claim constructive dismissal

You only have to look at TESCO, and British Gas with contractual changes imposed. As long as sufficient notice of that, they give change is all that is required and objectively justified.

Won't we all be sacked for striking on 24th Dec anyway? You said we would, with your expertise in employment law

Never said you would be sacked, so kindly refrain from putting words into my mouth. Stated what legislation dictates and a possibility termination of your contract what the law allows. There is a difference between Would and Can be dismissed.

Lol

[Splappy_McSplap]

Stated what legislation dictates and a possibility termination of your contract what the law allows.

Could you type in complete sentences please? Preferably ones that make sense.

[ANDREW CROCOMBE]

Getting to feel like the CWU has NO power to stop anything that RM bring in or change, RM know more small print t & C's than the union lawyers, and I guess know exactly what they can or cannot do. Was optimistic at first but now feel like we're in the quicksand with only the company ropes to save us. The siso will be used against us in any working hour arguments, along with the pda's.