clashcityrocker wrote:What cheap immigration?
What crap pay?
Not sure if you're trying to be contrarian or are genuinely unaware of the record levels of immigration that this country has experienced for the last 10-20 years? I can assure you not all the immigrants are independently wealthy or highly qualified and highly skilled.
Are you also unaware that wage levels,especially at the lower end of the pay scale, have been stagnant and falling in real terms for the last 10 years?
Whilst there may be other contributing factors to the suppression of wages the fact that there is an oversupply of cheap unskilled/low skilled workers on tap for the jobs market is the key enabler of this situation.
I don't know what part of the UK you are in (although I can probably guess) but certainly in my region there's definitely no shortage of unskilled/low skilled workers, with any job vacancies for such work typically receiving hundreds of applicants per position.
clashcityrocker wrote:What cheap immigration?
What crap pay?
Not sure if you're trying to be contrarian or are genuinely unaware of the record levels of immigration that this country has experienced for the last 10-20 years? I can assure you not all the immigrants are independently wealthy or highly qualified and highly skilled.
Are you also unaware that wage levels,especially at the lower end of the pay scale, have been stagnant and falling in real terms for the last 10 years?
Whilst there may be other contributing factors to the suppression of wages the fact that there is an oversupply of cheap unskilled/low skilled workers on tap for the jobs market is the key enabler of this situation.
Claptrap.
The 'key enabler' isn't immigration, it's the economic policies of the past decade of Conservative-driven austerity. Rather than punish the banks for the banking crisis, it's been rebranded a 'financial crisis' and we've all paid for it through reduced income. Blaming unskilled immigration for low wages is like blaming US mortgage defaulters for the banking crisis. If high levels of unskilled immigration depressed wages, why have German wages risen in real terms by over 10% in the past twelve years while ours have basically remained static (ie they've just recovered to 2008 levels)? In Germany, 12% of the population are foreign-born, 2/3 of them non-EU citizens. Most of these are 'low skilled'. In the UK, the comparable stats are 11% foreign-born and again about 2/3 of them are non-EU citizens. So there's no real difference in immigration between the UK and Germany in terms of skills or EU citizenship. What has been and is hugely different is the economic policies of their governments.
clashcityrocker wrote:What cheap immigration?
What crap pay?
Not sure if you're trying to be contrarian or are genuinely unaware of the record levels of immigration that this country has experienced for the last 10-20 years? I can assure you not all the immigrants are independently wealthy or highly qualified and highly skilled.
Are you really suggesting we are only paid £12/hour because of cheap immigrant labour?
The societies of consumption and squandering of material resources are incompatible with the idea of economic growth and a clean planet.
clashcityrocker wrote:What cheap immigration?
What crap pay?
Not sure if you're trying to be contrarian or are genuinely unaware of the record levels of immigration that this country has experienced for the last 10-20 years? I can assure you not all the immigrants are independently wealthy or highly qualified and highly skilled.
Are you really suggesting we are only paid £12/hour because of cheap immigrant labour?
Yes they are.....the blame it on the foreigners brigade...this is why the Tories are still in power :(
Such a shame that people aren't capable of independent, critical thinking and instead just allow themselves to be brainwashed by the Corporatists and bankers that run this country into believing that unlimited, unskilled immigration is a force for good and has no negative effect at all on wage levels or any other aspects of the economy.
We're veering off topic here but I can assure you I don't listen to Farage or any other politician for that matter, especially those to the right.
I acknowledged that there are other factors that have contributed to the not for all austerity and not for all wage suppression of the last decade, but unlimited, unskilled immigration has certainly been a key factor in allowing the rich to get richer and the poor poorer.
wacko74 wrote:We're veering off topic here but I can assure you I don't listen to Farage or any other politician for that matter, especially those to the right.
I acknowledged that there are other factors that have contributed to the not for all austerity and not for all wage suppression of the last decade, but unlimited, unskilled immigration has certainly been a key factor in allowing the rich to get richer and the poor poorer.
Why then has Germany seen sustained wage rises in real terms in the same period that we have remained stagnant? Their supply of unlimited, unskilled labour is essentially identical to ours, as is their population balance.
What's driving down wages is the inability of any government over the past 30 years to crack down on corporations who dodge not only tax but their social responsibilities as employers. Not just zero hour/minimum wage but things like RM offering an acceptable wage but only 'short' contracts (24 hour contract but expected to do 38 hours work with the overtime not given pro rate as holiday pay), or the pernicious 'self-employed' status inflicted on many people who are really employees. That has nowt to do with immigration and everything to do with ;liberal' 'free market' capitalism in its current sense.
What's allowing the rich to get richer and the poor poorer is the frankly staggering inability of those on the lowest rate of tax to wholeheartedly support tax rises for those on the higher rate of tax who earn more than twice the national average wage. Or the failure to crack down on tax fraud while spending huge amounts cracking down on benefit fraud (which accounts for far less loss of income).
It's just easy to blame foreigners and scroungers than to blame rich freeloaders. I've no idea why, but it is what it is.
DGH wrote:
Why then has Germany seen sustained wage rises in real terms in the same period that we have remained stagnant? Their supply of unlimited, unskilled labour is essentially identical to ours, as is their population balance.
What's driving down wages is the inability of any government over the past 30 years to crack down on corporations who dodge not only tax but their social responsibilities as employers. Not just zero hour/minimum wage but things like RM offering an acceptable wage but only 'short' contracts (24 hour contract but expected to do 38 hours work with the overtime not given pro rate as holiday pay), or the pernicious 'self-employed' status inflicted on many people who are really employees. That has nowt to do with immigration and everything to do with ;liberal' 'free market' capitalism in its current sense.
What's allowing the rich to get richer and the poor poorer is the frankly staggering inability of those on the lowest rate of tax to wholeheartedly support tax rises for those on the higher rate of tax who earn more than twice the national average wage. Or the failure to crack down on tax fraud while spending huge amounts cracking down on benefit fraud (which accounts for far less loss of income).
It's just easy to blame foreigners and scroungers than to blame rich freeloaders. I've no idea why, but it is what it is.
Well said DGH. I agree wholeheartedly. Corporate Tax Evasion is by far the largest problem ........... We all like to moan about "Benefit Scroungers" , and programmes like Benefits Street just stir the pot, but Corporations are Evading Tax .. by the BILLIONS! The argument is always used that if we don't allow these Worldwide Corporations to have the "Freedom to Trade"(obviously with all the lax Tax Laws & loopholes) in London then they'll go elsewhere. I often wonder if we'd be worse off with their kind of Business?
Last edited by Dorset Plodder on 29 Feb 2020, 15:54, edited 1 time in total.
Like all Wage Slaves, he had two crosses to bear: The people he worked for and the people he worked with! (Stephen Vizinczey.)
DGH wrote:
Why then has Germany seen sustained wage rises in real terms in the same period that we have remained stagnant? Their supply of unlimited, unskilled labour is essentially identical to ours, as is their population balance.
What's driving down wages is the inability of any government over the past 30 years to crack down on corporations who dodge not only tax but their social responsibilities as employers. Not just zero hour/minimum wage but things like RM offering an acceptable wage but only 'short' contracts (24 hour contract but expected to do 38 hours work with the overtime not given pro rate as holiday pay), or the pernicious 'self-employed' status inflicted on many people who are really employees. That has nowt to do with immigration and everything to do with ;liberal' 'free market' capitalism in its current sense.
What's allowing the rich to get richer and the poor poorer is the frankly staggering inability of those on the lowest rate of tax to wholeheartedly support tax rises for those on the higher rate of tax who earn more than twice the national average wage. Or the failure to crack down on tax fraud while spending huge amounts cracking down on benefit fraud (which accounts for far less loss of income).
It's just easy to blame foreigners and scroungers than to blame rich freeloaders. I've no idea why, but it is what it is.
Well said DGH. I agree wholeheartedly. Corporate Tax Evasion is by far the largest problem ........... We all like to moan about "Benefit Scroungers" , and programmes like Benefits Street just stir the pot, but Corporations are Evading Tax .. by the BILLIONS! The argument is always used that if we don't allow these Worldwide Corporations to have the "Freedom to Trade"(obviously will all the lax Tax Laws & loopholes) in London then they'll go elsewhere. I often wonder if we'd be worse off with their kind of Business?
If we had one tenth of the revenue from corporate tax evasion we could crack down on drug dealers who sell drugs too people who use them, And then steel rob you and me to fund those drugs and some of these people at the top fund these entity's for their connections in the underworld.
If foreign labour, or immigrants in general, are so bad for the economy, why do they contribute more to this country, financially via taxation (even ignoring their other non-monetary benefits) than your average indigenous citizen of this country?
LouBarlow wrote:If foreign labour, or immigrants in general, are so bad for the economy, why do they contribute more to this country, financially via taxation (even ignoring their other non-monetary benefits) than your average indigenous citizen of this country?
LouBarlow wrote:If foreign labour, or immigrants in general, are so bad for the economy, why do they contribute more to this country, financially via taxation (even ignoring their other non-monetary benefits) than your average indigenous citizen of this country?
Not only do they contribute more, they take less out than they put in. Sounds like we cant afford to lose them tbh.
If the issue of immigration was as simplistic as "benefit vs cost" then the whole of the EU (especially the poorer Eastern and Southern countries) would be clamouring to receive their share of the economic migrants who continue to attempt to reach the EU.
As with most stats they can be slanted to show whatever the presenter wishes.
Each immigrant child costs the taxpayer between £25000 to £35000 in schooling per year, so there must be some really high earners for their tax contributions to even be a significant percentage of that figure. Add in some GP/hospital visits, benefits of any sort and the claim that they "take out more than they put in" sounds decidedly dodgy.
Each immigrant child costs the taxpayer between £25000 to £35000 in schooling per year, so there must be some really high earners for their tax contributions to even be a significant percentage of that figure. Add in some GP/hospital visits, benefits of any sort and the claim that they "take out more than they put in" sounds decidedly dodgy.
1. Where did you get the figure of £25,000-£35,000?
That's complete nonsense.
Correct, and that'll teach me not to skim read.
Your second point is vacuous though. The original point wasn't about "who costs the most" but the claim "they put in more than they take out".
Corporate Tax Evasion is by far the largest problem ........... We all like to moan about "Benefit Scroungers" , and programmes like Benefits Street just stir the pot, but Corporations are Evading Tax .. by the BILLIONS! 
The argument is always used that if we don't allow these Worldwide Corporations to have the "Freedom to Trade"(obviously with all the lax Tax Laws & loopholes) in London then they'll go elsewhere. 
I often wonder if we'd be worse off with their kind of Business? 