Royal Mail in legal bid to block national Christmas strike : CWU response

[rumble1234]

We're screwed and you all know it.

[Woody Guthrie]

That is unfortunately my experience and take on it Dan.

[daveyeff]

It is all going to boil down to what evidence Royal Mail have. I am subscribed to pretty much all of the CWU groups on Facebook and can't remember ever seeing anything on there that might have triggered this. I guess we find out next week.

The strategy (if your home address is served by the DO you work in) came from HQ and all reps were told to encourage voting and returning on site so as many ballots as possible were returned on the same day.

This was encouraged alongside taking photos/social media in general and no guidelines were offered on ballot compliance and what not to do.

Any time it was queried HQ insisted that everything regarding the ballot was overseen by a top QC.

that's what our branch told us as well, a Q.C has been representing the union from the very start of the ballot. I hope the Q.C in this case isn't ''quickly cocked-up'' ….. RMs Q.C. is bound to stand for ''quietly conspiring''!!

[LouBarlow]

It is all going to boil down to what evidence Royal Mail have. I am subscribed to pretty much all of the CWU groups on Facebook and can't remember ever seeing anything on there that might have triggered this. I guess we find out next week.

The strategy (if your home address is served by the DO you work in) came from HQ and all reps were told to encourage voting and returning on site so as many ballots as possible were returned on the same day.

This was encouraged alongside taking photos/social media in general and no guidelines were offered on ballot compliance and what not to do.

Any time it was queried HQ insisted that everything regarding the ballot was overseen by a top QC.

I'm not saying it hasn't happened (and I actually think the social media coverage was dumb, but I have no idea on the legalities of that) but at this stage, we are still taking Royal Mail's word on this allegation - they are the ones saying they have evidence of this happening, while the union deny it, hence my wait and see comment. It could still just be last minute desperation from RM. Who knows?

[crimson king]

There has never been a better time to cripple RM with a simple (if unofficial) work to rule than right now
.
They will be reliant on us doing huge amounts of overtime in the next 7 weeks to deal with election material AND Christmas pressure, we will cause just as much disruption by simply declining their request for us to go over our time and we wouldn't lose any money through strike action.

Absolutely!

I got in the mood for this today by insisting we wouldn't have time for lapsing, taking a break and doing the job properly (taking care in the rain) and not rushing.

I do this every day anyway, but got in the mood today by practising various reponses to management requests over the next few weeks:

Mismanagement: Fancy coming in early to do tracked?

Me: Ah, no thanks.

Mismanagement: Fancy coming in early to do overweights?

Me: Ah, no thanks.

Mismanagement: What do you mean, you can't go over? It's Xmas Pressure!

Me: No pressure here, mate, your hierarchy have made well and truly sure that you can stick my December goodwill pretty much right where you intend to stuff your turkey/goose towards thre end of the month.

Oh, how RM must hate us middle aged stick in the muds who don't have money as our gods.

[k979aaa]

Do not MANAGERS pretend to be postal workers on their work site ie the videos we are forced to watch each week on the WTL?

[aiden01]

It is all going to boil down to what evidence Royal Mail have. I am subscribed to pretty much all of the CWU groups on Facebook and can't remember ever seeing anything on there that might have triggered this. I guess we find out next week.

The strategy (if your home address is served by the DO you work in) came from HQ and all reps were told to encourage voting and returning on site so as many ballots as possible were returned on the same day.

This was encouraged alongside taking photos/social media in general and no guidelines were offered on ballot compliance and what not to do.

Any time it was queried HQ insisted that everything regarding the ballot was overseen by a top QC.

I'm not saying it hasn't happened (and I actually think the social media coverage was dumb, but I have no idea on the legalities of that) but at this stage, we are still taking Royal Mail's word on this allegation - they are the ones saying they have evidence of this happening, while the union deny it, hence my wait and see comment. It could still just be last minute desperation from RM. Who knows?

So was it on cwu facebook or not. not on facebook meself or twitter but plenty have seen it going by posts on here.. also have seen plenty of photos of cwu members on their own phones btw showing off there ballot papers and guess who took the photos yes the rep..

[hero22]

It is all going to boil down to what evidence Royal Mail have. I am subscribed to pretty much all of the CWU groups on Facebook and can't remember ever seeing anything on there that might have triggered this. I guess we find out next week.

The strategy (if your home address is served by the DO you work in) came from HQ and all reps were told to encourage voting and returning on site so as many ballots as possible were returned on the same day.

This was encouraged alongside taking photos/social media in general and no guidelines were offered on ballot compliance and what not to do.

Any time it was queried HQ insisted that everything regarding the ballot was overseen by a top QC.

I'm not saying it hasn't happened (and I actually think the social media coverage was dumb, but I have no idea on the legalities of that) but at this stage, we are still taking Royal Mail's word on this allegation - they are the ones saying they have evidence of this happening, while the union deny it, hence my wait and see comment. It could still just be last minute desperation from RM. Who knows?

So was it on cwu facebook or not. not on facebook meself or twitter but plenty have seen it going by posts on here.. also have seen plenty of photos of cwu members on their own phones btw showing off there ballot papers and guess who took the photos yes the rep..

How do u know the rep took the photos ?

[SpacePhoenix]

Reading through this thread, my gut feeling is that RM will win the injunction

When will we know if they have got the injunction or not?

[aiden01]

It is all going to boil down to what evidence Royal Mail have. I am subscribed to pretty much all of the CWU groups on Facebook and can't remember ever seeing anything on there that might have triggered this. I guess we find out next week.

The strategy (if your home address is served by the DO you work in) came from HQ and all reps were told to encourage voting and returning on site so as many ballots as possible were returned on the same day.

This was encouraged alongside taking photos/social media in general and no guidelines were offered on ballot compliance and what not to do.

Any time it was queried HQ insisted that everything regarding the ballot was overseen by a top QC.

I'm not saying it hasn't happened (and I actually think the social media coverage was dumb, but I have no idea on the legalities of that) but at this stage, we are still taking Royal Mail's word on this allegation - they are the ones saying they have evidence of this happening, while the union deny it, hence my wait and see comment. It could still just be last minute desperation from RM. Who knows?

So was it on cwu facebook or not. not on facebook meself or twitter but plenty have seen it going by posts on here.. also have seen plenty of photos of cwu members on their own phones btw showing off there ballot papers and guess who took the photos yes the rep..

How do u know the rep took the photos ?

Because the people in the photos showed an told me hope that answers your question ..

[LouBarlow]

It is all going to boil down to what evidence Royal Mail have. I am subscribed to pretty much all of the CWU groups on Facebook and can't remember ever seeing anything on there that might have triggered this. I guess we find out next week.

The strategy (if your home address is served by the DO you work in) came from HQ and all reps were told to encourage voting and returning on site so as many ballots as possible were returned on the same day.

This was encouraged alongside taking photos/social media in general and no guidelines were offered on ballot compliance and what not to do.

Any time it was queried HQ insisted that everything regarding the ballot was overseen by a top QC.

I'm not saying it hasn't happened (and I actually think the social media coverage was dumb, but I have no idea on the legalities of that) but at this stage, we are still taking Royal Mail's word on this allegation - they are the ones saying they have evidence of this happening, while the union deny it, hence my wait and see comment. It could still just be last minute desperation from RM. Who knows?

So was it on cwu facebook or not. not on facebook meself or twitter but plenty have seen it going by posts on here.. also have seen plenty of photos of cwu members on their own phones btw showing off there ballot papers and guess who took the photos yes the rep..

I'm pretty sure it doesn't breech any voting regulations to show pictures of you voting, even at work. Royal Mail seem to be leaning on the 'you can't open your own mail at work without authorisation' tactic, which is pretty difficult to prove, as members could just be bringing in their voting form from home after it has been delivered.

I'm not confident that the CWU will win out, after the balls up from before, but I don't think it is as clear cut as some here think. Massive decision though for both us and the union going forward.

[yellowbelly]

It is all going to boil down to what evidence Royal Mail have. I am subscribed to pretty much all of the CWU groups on Facebook and can't remember ever seeing anything on there that might have triggered this. I guess we find out next week.

The strategy (if your home address is served by the DO you work in) came from HQ and all reps were told to encourage voting and returning on site so as many ballots as possible were returned on the same day.

This was encouraged alongside taking photos/social media in general and no guidelines were offered on ballot compliance and what not to do.

Any time it was queried HQ insisted that everything regarding the ballot was overseen by a top QC.

I'm not saying it hasn't happened (and I actually think the social media coverage was dumb, but I have no idea on the legalities of that) but at this stage, we are still taking Royal Mail's word on this allegation - they are the ones saying they have evidence of this happening, while the union deny it, hence my wait and see comment. It could still just be last minute desperation from RM. Who knows?

So was it on cwu facebook or not. not on facebook meself or twitter but plenty have seen it going by posts on here.. also have seen plenty of photos of cwu members on their own phones btw showing off there ballot papers and guess who took the photos yes the rep..

I'm pretty sure it doesn't breech any voting regulations to show pictures of you voting, even at work. Royal Mail seem to be leaning on the 'you can't open your own mail at work without authorisation' tactic, which is pretty difficult to prove, as members could just be bringing in their voting form from home after it has been delivered.

I'm not confident that the CWU will win out, after the balls up from before, but I don't think it is as clear cut as some here think. Massive decision though for both us and the union going forward.

Not clear cut but depends on the judges interpretation of the rules (in law) against the evidence that RM provide. Specifically, I would imagine RM will ask
the judge to adjudicate on (from the CODE OF PRACTICE -Industrial Action Ballots and Notice to Employers) :

42. In an industrial action ballot:
 every person entitled to vote must be allowed to do so without interference from, or constraint imposed by, the union or any of its members, officials or employees;

 as far as reasonably practicable, the ballot must be conducted in such a way as to ensure that those voting do so in secret.

Re the last point, I'm not a member of Facebook/Twitter but as a guest viewer linking through official CWU pages, there were people shown marking their
voting papers in the workplace. Whether a Union member encouraged them to do so might be difficult to prove either way, but the images were definitely
posted on official CWU media sites (otherwise I wouldn't have seen them).

[Sugar]

But what's next?

What's next is not very pretty.

Seen some numbers from proposed revisions in the region and they look frightening. Huge drop in F/T hours with a big climb in P/T hours. How they came to these figures I don't know and wasn't told but if this is happening in one region you can bet it's on the cards for others.

As for the injunction

“Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”

Sun Tzu The Art Of War.

Why O Why did people think it was a good idea to post their votes on social media

Never known a company so full of individuals that announce to every manager and his dog what they are going to do, planning on doing or thinking of doing.

They are not your friends confidants or sounding boards. They are managers.

Know thy enemy because a large percentage of managers out there will shaft you at the drop of a hat because they fear the manager above will do the exact same thing to them.

Let's hope the CWU can pull a miracle out of a hat and have evidence to back up they did everything correctly and hopefully evidence against RM of some sort that can sway the judge in their favour.

[michael147]

Hmmm.
Spoke to an old school friend of mine last night who is an employment lawyer.
Basically its impossible to hold a ballot of 100,000 people without `irregularities`.
It largely depends on what RM`s evidence actually is, so could just come down to
the judges `on the day`.
It would be a travesty for such a large vote on a large turnout to fall foul.
Be warned however the bar is set low for RM to jump as the legislation is strongly
anti union, his final conclusion?
He thinks its about a 60% chance the injunction will be granted, so grounds for hope.

[Woody Guthrie]

This morning the company is making a formal application to the High Court seeking an injunction to invalidate our national ballot and claim damages against the union.

That's the biggest problem, not invalidating the ballot.
If Royal Mail can prove irregularities and that those irregularities came about from a deliberate strategy by the CWU the business could then claim real and perceived damages from the union.

Potentially that could run into tens of millions and bankrupt the union, would RM try to bankrupt the union? Probably not because unions can be handy when it comes to enabling major change and they would lose engagement of the staff but they would certainly have the CWU in their back pocket that's for sure.

We would be hung out to dry.