Royal Mail in legal bid to block national Christmas strike : CWU response

Woody Guthrie · Post by **Woody Guthrie** » 10 Nov 2019, 11:28

I think at the moment a major plan B face saving strategy will be keeping HQ busy just in case the legal side goes badly wrong.

That's going to be a tough ask but Rico isn't stupid, you don't leave your enemy without any means of escape, an animal with nothing left to lose can be far more deadly. We are a united workforce not the CWU. We can unite behind any banner.

leolion855 · Post by **leolion855** » 10 Nov 2019, 11:41

Woody Guthrie wrote:I think at the moment a major plan B face saving strategy will be keeping HQ busy just in case the legal side goes badly wrong.

That's going to be a tough ask but Rico isn't stupid, you don't leave your enemy without any means of escape, an animal with nothing left to lose can be far more deadly. We are a united workforce not the CWU. We can unite behind any banner.

He already has nowt to loose!

If he wins he gets his changes
if he 'looses' he gets sacked with a few million in the bank, its not like hes going to be homeless or hungry either way

Woody Guthrie · Post by **Woody Guthrie** » 10 Nov 2019, 13:02

It's us that would have nothing to lose Leo, he will have more chance of successfully implementing some of his changes with the union on board than any of his changes without.

Forced change seldom works.

wandle · Post by **wandle** » 10 Nov 2019, 13:50

I have been told, by my union rep, that one of these videos shared on social media was filmed by a rep of 25+ years’ experience (ffs!), and posted on Facebook. I don’t do Facebook, but I think it would make a big difference to the case if it was posted on a CWU-themed Facebook page, rather than that rep’s personal Facebook page.
Our best hope, I believe, is for a judge to rule that, whilst RM have shown evidence of small-scale irregularities, he cannot grant them an injunction as even if all those in the offices concerned had voted differently, given the scale of the Yes vote, the overall outcome would not have been materially affected.
Assuming the judiciary are truly independent of any political influence, that is...

daveyeff · Post by **daveyeff** » 10 Nov 2019, 16:00

if the unions 'Q.C.' has been in total knowledge to all that's went on during this ballot, seen it all on FB and twitter etc, (as the union claim) and has not batted an eyelid to intervene, then he/she must be of the opinion that RMs claim wont hold water. I sincerely hope this is the case. the shame of us losing after all this sends shudders down my spine.

daveyeff · Post by **daveyeff** » 10 Nov 2019, 16:41

wandle wrote:I have been told, by my union rep, that one of these videos shared on social media was filmed by a rep of 25+ years’ experience (ffs!), and posted on Facebook. I don’t do Facebook, but I think it would make a big difference to the case if it was posted on a CWU-themed Facebook page, rather than that rep’s personal Facebook page.
Our best hope, I believe, is for a judge to rule that, whilst RM have shown evidence of small-scale irregularities, he cannot grant them an injunction as even if all those in the offices concerned had voted differently, given the scale of the Yes vote, the overall outcome would not have been materially affected.
Assuming the judiciary are truly independent of any political influence, that is...

been talking to a couple of reps over the weekend, their view is:-its entirely up to the individual if they want to open their ballot papers at work and vote as soon as they receive their paper. RM will have to prove that pressure or reps forced individuals to vote at work. we are in a unique position as we work where we can collect our own mail before its been officially delivered. the union officially had each and every one of those ballot papers sent to members homes. and will say they had no power over individuals intercepting their own mail. managers stood on and watched and did nothing about enforcing their mail integrity policy either.

Woody Guthrie · Post by **Woody Guthrie** » 10 Nov 2019, 17:44

RM will have to prove that pressure or reps forced individuals to vote at work.

No they won't.
They'll just have to show with reasonable probability (not prove because it's not a criminal case it's a civil case) that the union encouraged and/or officially endorsed this behaviour.

world class male · Post by **world class male** » 10 Nov 2019, 17:47

daveyeff wrote:
wandle wrote:I have been told, by my union rep, that one of these videos shared on social media was filmed by a rep of 25+ years’ experience (ffs!), and posted on Facebook. I don’t do Facebook, but I think it would make a big difference to the case if it was posted on a CWU-themed Facebook page, rather than that rep’s personal Facebook page.
Our best hope, I believe, is for a judge to rule that, whilst RM have shown evidence of small-scale irregularities, he cannot grant them an injunction as even if all those in the offices concerned had voted differently, given the scale of the Yes vote, the overall outcome would not have been materially affected.
Assuming the judiciary are truly independent of any political influence, that is...
been talking to a couple of reps over the weekend, their view is:-its entirely up to the individual if they want to open their ballot papers at work and vote as soon as they receive their paper. RM will have to prove that pressure or reps forced individuals to vote at work. we are in a unique position as we work where we can collect our own mail before its been officially delivered. the union officially had each and every one of those ballot papers sent to members homes. and will say they had no power over individuals intercepting their own mail. managers stood on and watched and did nothing about enforcing their mail integrity policy either.

But the big IF is if they got permission to open their mail and can prove it, Dave Ward said it's something in the norm, but not in the courts i'm afraid
our chiefs were asked numerous times if our ballot was legal with no loopholes to exploit and we were told 100% correct
if we do lose next week then there needs to be some culling in the cwu's legal team along with those in charge of the media side
i'm 100% pro union but if we get knocked back it will be humiliating for the top cwu guys and if they don't provide a counter attack strategy this year, which maybe illegal given the timescales then i'm pretty sure the next legal ballot will have a different result,still a yes but maybe not as a overwhelming yes as of this time
therefore the only option could be wildcat strikes or work to rule without the protection of the cwu, which nobody wants

Acca Dacca · Post by **Acca Dacca** » 10 Nov 2019, 18:15

world class male wrote:
daveyeff wrote:
wandle wrote:I have been told, by my union rep, that one of these videos shared on social media was filmed by a rep of 25+ years’ experience (ffs!), and posted on Facebook. I don’t do Facebook, but I think it would make a big difference to the case if it was posted on a CWU-themed Facebook page, rather than that rep’s personal Facebook page.
Our best hope, I believe, is for a judge to rule that, whilst RM have shown evidence of small-scale irregularities, he cannot grant them an injunction as even if all those in the offices concerned had voted differently, given the scale of the Yes vote, the overall outcome would not have been materially affected.
Assuming the judiciary are truly independent of any political influence, that is...
been talking to a couple of reps over the weekend, their view is:-its entirely up to the individual if they want to open their ballot papers at work and vote as soon as they receive their paper. RM will have to prove that pressure or reps forced individuals to vote at work. we are in a unique position as we work where we can collect our own mail before its been officially delivered. the union officially had each and every one of those ballot papers sent to members homes. and will say they had no power over individuals intercepting their own mail. managers stood on and watched and did nothing about enforcing their mail integrity policy either.
But the big IF is if they got permission to open their mail and can prove it, Dave Ward said it's something in the norm, but not in the courts i'm afraid
our chiefs were asked numerous times if our ballot was legal with no loopholes to exploit and we were told 100% correct
if we do lose next week then there needs to be some culling in the cwu's legal team along with those in charge of the media side
i'm 100% pro union but if we get knocked back it will be humiliating for the top cwu guys and if they don't provide a counter attack strategy this year, which maybe illegal given the timescales then i'm pretty sure the next legal ballot will have a different result,still a yes but maybe not as a overwhelming yes as of this time
therefore the only option could be wildcat strikes or work to rule without the protection of the cwu, which nobody wants

Royal Mail surely would need to prove that the ballots weren't just delivered to the members homes and they later brought them into work unopened the next day to vote.

I doubt there is any footage of members taking the mail from the frames - only either opening the envelopes ( which could be the day after delivery ) or posting them in the pillarbox

Can Royal Mail prove the letters weren't delivered first?

Not every DO received them in to deliver on the same day. Different parts of the country got them at different times.

This is the angle CWU QC takes I hope

world class male · Post by **world class male** » 10 Nov 2019, 18:29

Acca Dacca wrote:
world class male wrote:
daveyeff wrote:
wandle wrote:I have been told, by my union rep, that one of these videos shared on social media was filmed by a rep of 25+ years’ experience (ffs!), and posted on Facebook. I don’t do Facebook, but I think it would make a big difference to the case if it was posted on a CWU-themed Facebook page, rather than that rep’s personal Facebook page.
Our best hope, I believe, is for a judge to rule that, whilst RM have shown evidence of small-scale irregularities, he cannot grant them an injunction as even if all those in the offices concerned had voted differently, given the scale of the Yes vote, the overall outcome would not have been materially affected.
Assuming the judiciary are truly independent of any political influence, that is...
been talking to a couple of reps over the weekend, their view is:-its entirely up to the individual if they want to open their ballot papers at work and vote as soon as they receive their paper. RM will have to prove that pressure or reps forced individuals to vote at work. we are in a unique position as we work where we can collect our own mail before its been officially delivered. the union officially had each and every one of those ballot papers sent to members homes. and will say they had no power over individuals intercepting their own mail. managers stood on and watched and did nothing about enforcing their mail integrity policy either.
But the big IF is if they got permission to open their mail and can prove it, Dave Ward said it's something in the norm, but not in the courts i'm afraid
our chiefs were asked numerous times if our ballot was legal with no loopholes to exploit and we were told 100% correct
if we do lose next week then there needs to be some culling in the cwu's legal team along with those in charge of the media side
i'm 100% pro union but if we get knocked back it will be humiliating for the top cwu guys and if they don't provide a counter attack strategy this year, which maybe illegal given the timescales then i'm pretty sure the next legal ballot will have a different result,still a yes but maybe not as a overwhelming yes as of this time
therefore the only option could be wildcat strikes or work to rule without the protection of the cwu, which nobody wants
Royal Mail surely would need to prove that the ballots weren't just delivered to the members homes and they later brought them into work unopened the next day to vote.

I doubt there is any footage of members taking the mail from the frames - only either opening the envelopes ( which could be the day after delivery ) or posting them in the pillarbox

Can Royal Mail prove the letters weren't delivered first?

Not every DO received them in to deliver on the same day. Different parts of the country got them at different times.

This is the angle CWU QC takes I hope

i'm pretty sure photos were uploaded on the morning they were sent into the delivery offices, i only use twitter and haven't searched that far back but it will be obvious some opened in office, whether we get a decent judge in court will be the key

daveyeff · Post by **daveyeff** » 10 Nov 2019, 19:23

that apparently has no ground with the ballot, if they opened them at work or not. mail integrity is a RM internal procedure so its got nothing to do with the ballot. what RM has to do is convince the judge the members who DID open them at work were forced/coerced/pressured into doing so by reps/branch/hq or what have you. Tuesday can't come quick enough for me. we'll all know soon enough. jumping for joy or hanging our heads.

hans solo · Post by **hans solo** » 10 Nov 2019, 19:31

were walking regardless

k979aaa · Post by **k979aaa** » 10 Nov 2019, 19:39

daveyeff wrote:that apparently has no ground with the ballot, if they opened them at work or not. mail integrity is a RM internal procedure so its got nothing to do with the ballot. what RM has to do is convince the judge the members who DID open them at work were forced/coerced/pressured into doing so by reps/branch/hq or what have you. Tuesday can't come quick enough for me. we'll all know soon enough. jumping for joy or hanging our heads.

No reason too it was assured the vote because of the way we are all treated by the management train of thought!

LouBarlow · Post by **LouBarlow** » 10 Nov 2019, 20:12

I have to admit, even as a strong union guy, I found the gloating on social media a little too much. Rubbing Royal Mail's face in it over the yes vote etc. The CWU run a decent campaign unto it comes to voting, then seem to fall apart. A safe vote with an 80% yes vote, with none of the hysterics, would have been preferential to this questionable one.

If the CWU lose on Tuesday then I truly fear for both their continuation and our futures, as if they thought the resentment was bad last time round when they f****d up, they aint seen nothing yet. People are going to be pissed.

ddtc · Post by **ddtc** » 10 Nov 2019, 20:22

I really don't see the difference of RM bombarding us with numerous RMTV videos saying vote no, courier, managers spouting nonsense, letters etc to us. Is that not trying to coerce us?