Part timers to receive overtime pay on holiday?

telithowitis · Post by **telithowitis** » 02 Sep 2016, 17:52

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/sme ... ay-advice/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Recently started working at RM and surprised to hear Part time workers only receiving basic contract hours pay when on holiday. The Employent Appeals Tribunal appear to have ruled that you should be paid an average of the overtime you normally work when on holiday as this is your "normal" pay.
My last job accepted this ruling last year and paid extra and my wife deals with the wages/pay of the company she works for and they pay the average of your last 14 weeks pay -including overtime- when you take a weeks leave.
And you appear to be able to back claim for 2 years as well if you think you have been underpaid.

There's lots of different links on the internet about this but I've put one above. Not totally sure if I'm right but can't see why my last employer paid up if they didn't have to as they were far worse than RM for saving money!!!

If it's true are the CWU perusing this??

datasaint · Post by **datasaint** » 02 Sep 2016, 20:22

the EAT guidance is quite clear and is as follows: when calculating holiday pay, employers should include normal non-guaranteed overtime.

This is overtime which is not contractually guaranteed, but which the employee is obliged to work if it is offered or required by the employer.

Technically we are not obliged to do overtime for RM, so the ruling doesn't apply. But realistically people have to work OT to make a respectable wage because of our low hour contracts, so you could argue our holiday pay should be increased, at a minimum to the same level full-timers have.

Creditshampoo · Post by **Creditshampoo** » 02 Sep 2016, 21:01

I put in a grievanceabout this 3 weeks ago.
Heard zero since.

zqkhan · Post by **zqkhan** » 02 Sep 2016, 21:16

telithowitis wrote:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/sme ... ay-advice/

Recently started working at RM and surprised to hear Part time workers only receiving basic contract hours pay when on holiday. The Employent Appeals Tribunal appear to have ruled that you should be paid an average of the overtime you normally work when on holiday as this is your "normal" pay.
My last job accepted this ruling last year and paid extra and my wife deals with the wages/pay of the company she works for and they pay the average of your last 14 weeks pay -including overtime- when you take a weeks leave.
And you appear to be able to back claim for 2 years as well if you think you have been underpaid.

There's lots of different links on the internet about this but I've put one above. Not totally sure if I'm right but can't see why my last employer paid up if they didn't have to as they were far worse than RM for saving money!!!

If it's true are the CWU perusing this??

Hi...if u do SA over time then you hv entitled 11:30 hours SA holidays payment... Ask this about your union rep or Direct to your manager

Dorset Plodder · Post by **Dorset Plodder** » 03 Sep 2016, 14:00

Just another way of RM saving money. Part Timers have been chasing this for years, which I believe is a fair deal, however consider just how much money RM is saving when they pay all those 20 hour holidays...Instead of the average 40 hours worked? You can see why those bloody Accountants and Managers are resisting it.

Also it only affects the Part Timers. And we know most of the Movers & Shakers are Full Time, as are most CWU Reps!

telithowitis · Post by **telithowitis** » 03 Sep 2016, 16:13

It wouldn't just effect part timers if it was applied. FT contract staff who worked over time - say averaging 11 hours a week- would then be entitled to 50 hours pay for a weeks holiday.

Credit shampoo I understand your interpretation of the EAT findings, but many companies are now following the spirit of the guidelines and applying the overtime payments even though staff are not "forced" to work overtime.

The EAT make rulings to ensure workers are treated fairly. Surely the CWU should negotiate with RM over this and if nothing is agreed take a case to EAT.

If a case was presented by the CWU collecting data of the average amount of overtime worked by a sample of post workers particular part time workers they may decide that the way the RM deals with this is not in the spirit of their ruling and decide that there is an obligation or expectation to work overtime in RM. They might decide that OT in RM is not occasional but in fact a premeditated ploy to treat workers unfairly and there is an expectation and indeed an obligation to work overtime in the RM.

Who knows unless it's challenged?

Creditshampoo · Post by **Creditshampoo** » 03 Sep 2016, 16:49

telithowitis wrote:
Credit shampoo I understand your interpretation of the EAT findings, but many companies are now following the spirit of the guidelines and applying the overtime payments even though staff are not "forced" to work overtime.

The EAT make rulings to ensure workers are treated fairly. Surely the CWU should negotiate with RM over this and if nothing is agreed take a case to EAT.

If a case was presented by the CWU collecting data of the average amount of overtime worked by a sample of post workers particular part time workers they may decide that the way the RM deals with this is not in the spirit of their ruling and decide that there is an obligation or expectation to work overtime in RM. They might decide that OT in RM is not occasional but in fact a premeditated ploy to treat workers unfairly and there is an expectation and indeed an obligation to work overtime in the RM.

Who knows unless it's challenged?

ACAS say I have a case I'm 100% going all the way with this

DB1100 · Post by **DB1100** » 03 Sep 2016, 18:42

Creditshampoo wrote:
telithowitis wrote:
Credit shampoo I understand your interpretation of the EAT findings, but many companies are now following the spirit of the guidelines and applying the overtime payments even though staff are not "forced" to work overtime.

The EAT make rulings to ensure workers are treated fairly. Surely the CWU should negotiate with RM over this and if nothing is agreed take a case to EAT.

If a case was presented by the CWU collecting data of the average amount of overtime worked by a sample of post workers particular part time workers they may decide that the way the RM deals with this is not in the spirit of their ruling and decide that there is an obligation or expectation to work overtime in RM. They might decide that OT in RM is not occasional but in fact a premeditated ploy to treat workers unfairly and there is an expectation and indeed an obligation to work overtime in the RM.

Who knows unless it's challenged?
ACAS say I have a case I'm 100% going all the way with this

Will you keep us informed please.

Post by **IloveMYredTROLLEY!** » 03 Sep 2016, 18:45

Weren't the CWU supposed to be chasing this up, months ago?

The current situation is extremely unfair to the PT staff who often bail out offices by doing lots of regular overtime, if nothing changes, best policy is hit them where it hurts... Around Xmas pressure time especially.

telithowitis · Post by **telithowitis** » 03 Sep 2016, 21:39

Credit-shampoo Good luck with yours but surely the CWU should be all over this??? My knowledge is limited to a few other companies/organisations but they are all paying up. Can anyone from the CWU comment on where they are with this and what is happening.
Just to repeat this is not only for PT workers it applies to FT workers as well. Essentially this ruling says You should be paid an average of what you normally earn including OT when you are on holiday. So if you are FT or PT and work ANY overtime you have an interest in the CWU negotiating with RM and persuing this further if the RM do not pay up.
Spread the word folks and ask your reps to follow this up for you.

Creditshampoo · Post by **Creditshampoo** » 03 Sep 2016, 22:22

Thanks guys. I've been doing full time hours since I startEd and I'm contracted 25.
Holiday pay is meant to be based on my normal pay...not contact according to ACAS. It's hard enough finishing on full time hours let alone 25 hours. Try telling them you're only working 5 hours a day.
I'm on the rota every week on a full time duty, they fully expect me to work full time and they can't treat part timers differently from full timers. Working full time but only getting part timer benefits that's being treated differently.
As my stage 2 has been ignored can I just put in a stage 3 right away? ACAS have said once I do then they can help with tribunal.

The unions stance is as follows

"have you been covering peoples days off?, you won't get a full time contract for that"
"You'll have to wait until duties are advertised"
Etc etc I don't give a flying f**k what Royal mails excuses are the law is the law and enough is enough.

datasaint · Post by **datasaint** » 03 Sep 2016, 22:25

lol fair play mate, but for any change to be made would have massive far reaching implications across RM.

You'll probably more likely end up with a FT contract to keep you quiet.

telithowitis · Post by **telithowitis** » 03 Sep 2016, 22:31

Norm
Hopefully credit shampoo will get the FT contract he possibly deserves.... But that should not stop the CWU persuing the best interests of their members.

charlie1 · Post by **charlie1** » 04 Sep 2016, 16:33

The CWU were supposed to be challenging Royal Mail over the European Directive about holiday pay and regular overtime. The directive indicated the inclusion of regular overtime payments being paid also whilst you were on holiday. This would apply to both full and part time employee's.

Dave Ward CWU even sent out a letter to say the CWU would be pursuing this on behalf of members. I believe even Royal Mail made reference to the fact of a possible large claim in one of their end of year results, so they are certainly aware of the implications.

Some firms are already paying this to their employee's, however their is some clarity needed over if the overtime was contractual or not. Also clarity is needed about what constitutes being classed as regular overtime. The courts will probably decide, however some experts predict if overtime is seen to be regular it should then be included.

Hopefully the CWU will update us all at some point.

DocketLefty · Post by **DocketLefty** » 09 Sep 2016, 21:47

My grievance is being put in Monday morning regarding this. I will win.