ghosting

[wolfie citizen smith]

is it legal, is it against H&S and why is it aloud

[TrueBlueTerrier]

You mean Ghost overtime - as long as you have signed the 48 hour working time directive opt out then on its own there are no H&S implications on Ghost Overtime, just the usual ones applicable in normal day to day work.

Is it legal - well its not illegal although there could be a question raised about the "working all paid hours" sections of recent agreements, but that would be an internal RM matter not a legal one.

Why is it allowed - Technically it isn't - but it is simply because if they did not allow ghost overtime in most places then the work would not get done. Market Principles at work for once to the benefit of the bottom rung, instead of the top.

[Brainache]

In 31years of being a postie I first heard of Ghosting in the media during last strike (or maybe the one before that ). I have always known it as `Making Time` - Is `Ghosting` a RM/Media word because it sounds like getting payed for work that didn`t exist. Whereas `Making Time` is simply finishing early through hard work. I started off in SL area so I don`t think it was a London phrase.
If its a RM/Media phrase then Union shouldnt go along with it.

[wolfie citizen smith]

You mean Ghost overtime - as long as you have signed the 48 hour working time directive opt out then on its own there are no H&S implications on Ghost Overtime, just the usual ones applicable in normal day to day work.

Is it legal - well its not illegal although there could be a question raised about the "working all paid hours" sections of recent agreements, but that would be an internal RM matter not a legal one.

Why is it allowed - Technically it isn't - but it is simply because if they did not allow ghost overtime in most places then the work would not get done. Market Principles at work for once to the benefit of the bottom rung, instead of the top.

contradiction in term comes to mind
If your duty starts at lets say 11.00am and overtime performed starts at 6.20am, officially overtime booked should be 4hrs 40mins.
how then is it possible to book 8hrs 30mins that day and then do the same the next day and then the next day and then the next day.
Bent fraudalent bastards

[TrueBlueTerrier]

In 31years of being a postie I first heard of Ghosting in the media during last strike (or maybe the one before that ). I have always known it as `Making Time` - Is `Ghosting` a RM/Media word because it sounds like getting payed for work that didn`t exist. Whereas `Making Time` is simply finishing early through hard work. I started off in SL area so I don`t think it was a London phrase.
If its a RM/Media phrase then Union shouldnt go along with it.

Its always afaik been used at my place it means being paid overtime to complete a part or a whole duty as well as your own, but finishing at your normal time. Another form of ghosting is when you are asked to do 1 hours docket and get paid more. I personally do neither but I fully understand and accept why others do.

[wolfie citizen smith]

I fully understand and accept why others do.

how can you accept fraud within a company let alone outside a company. I suspect your one of those types that fully understands and accepts its ok for one of your mates to drink drive

[TrueBlueTerrier]

I fully understand and accept why others do.

how can you accept fraud within a company let alone outside a company. I suspect your one of those types that fully understands and accepts its ok for one of your mates to drink drive

Totally out of order comparing agreeing a fair and reasonable price to do overtime and drink driving peple die because of drink driving - they don't because of ghost overtime.

Its only fraud if you do not have the managers agreement and in every case I have heard of that's what you get.

I suppose if you were asked and accepted an extra row, not lapsing, beyond your own duty and the Boss said I'll give you an hour, that you would tell him next day - knock 15 mins off it didn't take that long and I finished my duty early as well. I have to be honest the very rare time I have accepted extra the boss has always offered me more time than it will take its not like I have farudlently claimed it, he has offered me that rate and I agreed.

[wolfie citizen smith]

I fully understand and accept why others do.

how can you accept fraud within a company let alone outside a company. I suspect your one of those types that fully understands and accepts its ok for one of your mates to drink drive

Totally out of order comparing agreeing a fair and reasonable price to do overtime and drink driving peple die because of drink driving - they don't because of ghost overtime.

Its only fraud if you do not have the managers agreement and in every case I have heard of that's what you get.

I suppose if you were asked and accepted an extra row, not lapsing, beyond your own duty and the Boss said I'll give you an hour, that you would tell him next day - knock 15 mins off it didn't take that long and I finished my duty early as well. I have to be honest the very rare time I have accepted extra the boss has always offered me more time than it will take its not like I have farudlently claimed it, he has offered me that rate and I agreed.

If somebody is performing overtime that takes overtime off of someone with a less aggregate than that person and the unit you work in thinks this is unacceptable but this still continues then this form of overtime is fraud because the overtime could and should have been performed by someone on a lesser aggregate, however you have insinuated that all is ok in a dog eat dog world and therefore my comment of you accepting that fraud is the same as drink driving still stands as they are both illigal

[TrueBlueTerrier]

I fully understand and accept why others do.

how can you accept fraud within a company let alone outside a company. I suspect your one of those types that fully understands and accepts its ok for one of your mates to drink drive

Totally out of order comparing agreeing a fair and reasonable price to do overtime and drink driving peple die because of drink driving - they don't because of ghost overtime.

Its only fraud if you do not have the managers agreement and in every case I have heard of that's what you get.

I suppose if you were asked and accepted an extra row, not lapsing, beyond your own duty and the Boss said I'll give you an hour, that you would tell him next day - knock 15 mins off it didn't take that long and I finished my duty early as well. I have to be honest the very rare time I have accepted extra the boss has always offered me more time than it will take its not like I have farudlently claimed it, he has offered me that rate and I agreed.

If somebody is performing overtime that takes overtime off of someone with a less aggregate than that person and the unit you work in thinks this is unacceptable but this still continues then this form of overtime is fraud because the overtime could and should have been performed by someone on a lesser aggregate, however you have insinuated that all is ok in a dog eat dog world and therefore my comment of you accepting that fraud is the same as drink driving still stands as they are both illigal

What are you on about - You asked about ghosting and I answered that.

Now you bring up something we have not even touched on - whose turn it is to do overtime and whether I guess PTimers should get first dibs - as it happens they do in my place.

I will reiterate again if you have the agreement from your manager ghosting is not illegal, and its certainly not life threatening.

Now if you want a discussion please ask the questions you want answered please don't make up my responses to unasked questions and certainly please don't surmise my position on incomplete facts or pure guessing on your part.

[wolfie citizen smith]

I fully understand and accept why others do.

how can you accept fraud within a company let alone outside a company. I suspect your one of those types that fully understands and accepts its ok for one of your mates to drink drive

Totally out of order comparing agreeing a fair and reasonable price to do overtime and drink driving peple die because of drink driving - they don't because of ghost overtime.

Its only fraud if you do not have the managers agreement and in every case I have heard of that's what you get.

I suppose if you were asked and accepted an extra row, not lapsing, beyond your own duty and the Boss said I'll give you an hour, that you would tell him next day - knock 15 mins off it didn't take that long and I finished my duty early as well. I have to be honest the very rare time I have accepted extra the boss has always offered me more time than it will take its not like I have farudlently claimed it, he has offered me that rate and I agreed.

If somebody is performing overtime that takes overtime off of someone with a less aggregate than that person and the unit you work in thinks this is unacceptable but this still continues then this form of overtime is fraud because the overtime could and should have been performed by someone on a lesser aggregate, however you have insinuated that all is ok in a dog eat dog world and therefore my comment of you accepting that fraud is the same as drink driving still stands as they are both illigal

What are you on about - You asked about ghosting and I answered that.

Now you bring up something we have not even touched on - whose turn it is to do overtime and whether I guess PTimers should get first dibs - as it happens they do in my place.

I will reiterate again if you have the agreement from your manager ghosting is not illegal, and its certainly not life threatening.

Now if you want a discussion please ask the questions you want answered please don't make up my responses to unasked questions and certainly please don't surmise my position on incomplete facts or pure guessing on your part.

how dare you presume that your interpriation of my knowledge of what ghosting is, is not factual
I have perfectly explained what ghosting is as whether it is legal on both law and health & safety grounds and asked whether what the rest of the groups thoughts were on this how dare you then attack me with your drival regarding part-timers, this is to do with full time postPEOPLE performing extra hours overtime within there duty time, while the poor postman is being shalfted to work to there time and maybe able to scrape an hour or a half per day when others within our unit are aloud to book 8.30hrs to 10.00hrs per day and book this hourage within there duty time. THIS IS GHOSTING

[andy2007]

Just so you know where I stand on this: I think that Ghosting is wrong. But could you explain a few things about your position please. I'm very confused.

1) What evidence do you have that Ghosting is illegal?
I looked into this, when they tried doing it at the RDC, several years ago. When we were short of volunteers for overtime, and still got flirts (basically they offered overtime, to cover the time from hitting the target, to the official finish time). I tried to argue that it amounted to fraud, but recieved the same explination that Teebs gave you. And as both the Managers and Reps were saying that I was wrong, and I couldn't find anything to contradict them (and not for want of trying!), I had to accept that it was legal.

2) I agree with you, that if someone is refused overtime, and someone else gets Ghost overtime, it's wrong. But doing something morally wrong, and breaking the law, aren't neccessarily the same thing.

3) Has there ever been a case of someone being seriously injuried or killed as a result of someone doing Ghost overtime?
Now there may be cases that I'm not aware of. Where people have got hurt, or worse whilst doing Ghost overtime. But what I want to know is: has there ever been a case of someone being seriously injured or killed. As a direct result of someone doing Ghost overtime?

4) If there haven't been any cases, then how dare you compare Ghost overtime with Drink Driving!
If there have been some cases, then I apologise wholeheartedly for my previous statement.

[brothermagrew]

Brothers a timely reminder to debate and discuss the issue at hand in a gentlemanly manner and please leave out any insults implied or otherwise well alone

[wolfie citizen smith]

Just so you know where I stand on this: I think that Ghosting is wrong. But could you explain a few things about your position please. I'm very confused.

1) What evidence do you have that Ghosting is illegal?
I looked into this, when they tried doing it at the RDC, several years ago. When we were short of volunteers for overtime, and still got flirts (basically they offered overtime, to cover the time from hitting the target, to the official finish time). I tried to argue that it amounted to fraud, but recieved the same explination that Teebs gave you. And as both the Managers and Reps were saying that I was wrong, and I couldn't find anything to contradict them (and not for want of trying!), I had to accept that it was legal.

2) I agree with you, that if someone is refused overtime, and someone else gets Ghost overtime, it's wrong. But doing something morally wrong, and breaking the law, aren't neccessarily the same thing.

3) Has there ever been a case of someone being seriously injuried or killed as a result of someone doing Ghost overtime?
Now there may be cases that I'm not aware of. Where people have got hurt, or worse whilst doing Ghost overtime. But what I want to know is: has there ever been a case of someone being seriously injured or killed. As a direct result of someone doing Ghost overtime?

4) If there haven't been any cases, then how dare you compare Ghost overtime with Drink Driving!
If there have been some cases, then I apologise wholeheartedly for my previous statement.

Andy2007, I appreciate extremely your positive debate on this issue which is close to my heart and I would like to explain myself in a rational manner if I may.
To ghost overtime----My duty runs to time, believe it or believe it not but it does, now then other blue shirts have screamed untill they are blue in the face that there duties run to time however these same people perform overtime within there duty time, this by definition is ghosting overtime and to perform such overtime means that you are obtaining services by deception (payment for overtime within your normal working hours) which also by definition is FRAUD which is illigal.
Unfortunaltey I have been on the recieving end of someone chasing there ass off to obtain these services by deception, who in turn run me over in a Royal Mail works van. So therefore I do dare to compare anybody ghosting overtime with a drink driver and any other maniac driver out there whether they be tired or any other feeble excuss they may come up with.
Ghosting overtime in my eyes is illigal and any employer encouraging this is therefore abusing Health N Safety towards there employees

[andy2007]

Thanks, that makes a lot more sense now. I still think it's wrong to compare Ghost overtime with drink driving. But I do now understand why you said that.

I also completly agree with you about Ghost overtime being potentially llegal. I just wasn't able to prove it, when it happened in my RDC. Thankfully, we've worked to our time, since the 2010 deal came in. So it's no longer an issue (athough it hasn't happened for several years anyway). But unless someone is more succssful than I was, in finding anything specific to prove that it's illegal. Considering that it's done with the full knowledge (more to the point, at the suggesion) of Management. Then it'll continue. Because apparently, it can't be considered to be deception, when it was suggested by the Employer. Although I still think that it's defrauding RM as a Company. Even if local Managers are colluding with those doing the Ghost overtime.