i have recently returned to work from a long period of absence due to severe panic/anxiety attacks which in turn lead to a form of stress depression. i had regulary kept contact with royal mail and the ohs who at first were ok with me and 'seemed' sympathetic but after a period of time basically hounded me back to work even though i was still recieving councelling from my specialist gp and ohs !
i have been back to work for a few weeks now on a rehab duty and i now have recieved an 'rtu' informing me of a possible dissmissal due to my attendance record.
ive read the ohs report and im greatly concerned as there seems to be no refferal to the actual reason why i was off, only that i had broke royal mail attendance standards.
just before i went on the sick there was a mens health week in my mail centre (NIMC) outlining such cases as mental health, lifestyles both inside and outside work.
now i feel as if i am going to be punished for having an illness that was completely out of my control and punished for a subject that royal mail has publicly tried to help sort out in the work place !!!
does anybody have any advice i could take on board for my case as this is effecting my domestic life now and causing concern.
any help would be greatly appreciated !!!!
thanks Mo !!!!
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possible dissmissal for being off sick !!!!
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mo927
- Posts: 19
- Joined: 14 Oct 2009, 10:10
- Gender: Male
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Stormproof
- Posts: 6116
- Joined: 07 Jul 2007, 21:03
- Gender: Female
Re: possible dissmissal for being off sick !!!!
surely your illness is covered by DDA 
ATOS are useless, I recently attended a ATOS appointment due to my attendance record, they always send you to the ATOS Dr for a pending Stage 3 interview. I had an AOD and injured my leg, the Dr said I had Tennis Elbow in my knee
so I don't know where these so called Dr's get their qualifications from.
Make sure your rep is involved, I've had 4 stage 3 interviews in 2 years, without my rep I doubt I would've survived the first one. Good Luck and I hope everything goes well for you.
ATOS are useless, I recently attended a ATOS appointment due to my attendance record, they always send you to the ATOS Dr for a pending Stage 3 interview. I had an AOD and injured my leg, the Dr said I had Tennis Elbow in my knee
so I don't know where these so called Dr's get their qualifications from. Make sure your rep is involved, I've had 4 stage 3 interviews in 2 years, without my rep I doubt I would've survived the first one. Good Luck and I hope everything goes well for you.
So keep on moving, moving, moving your feet
Keep on shuf-shuf-shuffling to this ghost dance beat
Just keep on walking down never ending streets
Illegitimi non carborundum
Keep on shuf-shuf-shuffling to this ghost dance beat
Just keep on walking down never ending streets
Illegitimi non carborundum
-
mo927
- Posts: 19
- Joined: 14 Oct 2009, 10:10
- Gender: Male
Re: possible dissmissal for being off sick !!!!
according to the report the illness does not fall into the dda ????
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norbert
- Posts: 3027
- Joined: 15 Jan 2008, 01:46
Re: possible dissmissal for being off sick !!!!
What would a tribunal panel / Chairman have to say on the subject ? - never mind RM " politics "mo927 wrote:according to the report the illness does not fall into the dda ????
, RM have set questions usually asked by a " they're all lazy & swinging the lead " Manager who is a " expert " in medical science which require the " right " RM answers , everything is purely to impress a more senior manager - end of ! & to show " everybody is singing from the same hymn sheet " .I accept there are a few professional lead swingers / malingerers / accident claimers / old soldiers etc but RM have to be careful they're not entering a mine field
ATOS are " financially " incentivized by RM - Also would the GP & those consultants welcome " second opinions " and being told their job ?
Get legal advice from Simpson Miller , RM has traditionally regarded itself as above the law and done what it likes .
Last edited by norbert on 14 Oct 2009, 11:48, edited 2 times in total.
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Stormproof
- Posts: 6116
- Joined: 07 Jul 2007, 21:03
- Gender: Female
Re: possible dissmissal for being off sick !!!!
This is a bit of a long winded article but may be of help to you.
Is stress a disability? – A Frequently Asked Question
This is a question which perplexes many employers, Union and other workplace representatives, and people who themselves who experience stress.
What is stress?
The Health and Safety Executive defines stress as:
'The adverse reaction people have to excessive pressure or other types of demand placed on them.' - HSE
This is because it is important to distinguish between stress and pressure. Pressure is a positive motivating force at work, but it may lead to stress, and therefore become a problem, if the person under pressure does not feel that they have the resources (personal or otherwise) to cope with pressure placed upon them.
It is also important to distinguish between stress, anxiety and depression.
Depression
Depression is on a spectrum from mild to severe. Depression is common in the general and working population. Symptoms include low mood and lack of energy. Motivation can be affected and people may experience thoughts of life not being worth living, which in extreme cases can lead to suicidal behaviour.
Anxiety
Anxiety becomes a problem when feelings of tension and fear prevent a person from carrying out everyday tasks. In extreme cases people may suffer panic attacks or phobias. Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) is a form of anxiety where people have recurrent, intrusive thoughts, which they may feel ‘forced’ to act on (e.g. fears of contamination leading to repetitive hand washing).
How do you decide if a member who has stress is disabled under the DDA?
When trying to decide whether a person who is experiencing stress falls within the definition of disability in the DDA, there are a number of matters that Union representatives need to take into consideration. Please note that this information should be read in conjunction with the document available from the DRC’s website:
‘Guidance on matters to be taken into account in determining questions relating to the definition
of disability’
1. Firstly under S 1 of DDA 1995 a person is defined as having a disability “if he has a physical or mental impairment which has a substantial and long term adverse effect on his ability to carry out normal day to day activities”. These are defined as:
mobility;
manual dexterity;
physical co-ordination;
continence;
ability to lift, carry or otherwise move everyday objects;
speech, hearing or eyesight;
memory or ability to concentrate, learn or understand; or
perception of the risk of physical danger.
2. Schedule 1 to the DDA as amended by the DDA 2005 now provides that people with a mental health problem no longer need to show that their particular impairment is ‘clinically well-recognised in order to satisfy the definition. The term ‘clinically well recognised’ means that the person’s mental health problem was recognised by a respected body of medical opinion, for example those conditions listed in the World Health Organisation’s International Classification of Diseases (WHO ICD10). This is no longer the case BUT:
3. The person would still have to demonstrate that they fit the DDA definition of disability. So how would this be determined? Union representatives would need to consider whether:
a. the impairment has lasted twelve months or is likely to last twelve months or more
b. the stress is having a substantial and adverse effect on the ability to carry out normal day to day activities
So, if a person is experiencing stress, but has only done so on and off for six months, they may not satisfy the ‘long-term’ requirement. However, if the substantial adverse effects of a condition are more likely than not to recur, they are treated as continuing. And if those effects are likely to recur beyond 12 months of the first occurrence they will qualify as ‘long-term’ under the DDA definition of disability.
It is common that most episodes of stress (but certainly not all) do not last longer than a few months and even acute episodes of depression may only last a few months, and thus it is crucial to determine whether the effects of the condition are substantial and adverse, and that they are more likely than not to recur.
If a person’s mental health problem is stress related, the day to day activity affected is very likely to be the individual’s memory or ability to concentrate, learn or understand, so unless it could be shown that the effect of the stress on these day to day activities was substantial and adverse, the person is unlikely to fit the definition in the DDA.
There may be one further way that people with stress may fit the DDA definition of disability, and that is if the stress can be shown to be exacerbating another pre-existing condition, such as Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (CFS). If this was the case, you should consider that although any one of these conditions on their own may not have substantial effect, together they may do, and so a person with another condition, exacerbated by stress, may be covered by the DDA because of the cumulative effects of both conditions together.
The key thing to consider here is whether the stress is rendering the employee unable to cope with his other condition, which without the stress, he would normally be able to cope with. So, for example, someone with CFS only may or may not fit the DDA definition, depending upon how severe their condition was. Some people with CFS, especially in its early stages, may still be able to cope well with normal day to day activities, and so would perhaps not fit the DDA definition of disability.
However, if they were suffering stress at work (and in many cases this can be due to employer’s seeming reluctant to make reasonable adjustments for people who they are not 100% sure are covered by the DDA), and if this stress makes their CFS worse as well as affecting their concentration and ability to deal with colleagues and issues at work, they may come under the DDA definition.
4. It should also be borne in mind that people who have had a disability in the past, but who have since recovered are still protected by the DDA, if, at the time they had it, their condition would have been covered by the DDA. This is very important as some people who have been off work for a long time in the past with stress or a mental health problem, may have recovered, but may still experience stigma and discrimination.
So what should Union representatives do?
If a Union representative has a member who reports that they are stressed, there are a number of reasonable adjustments that they can suggest to the employer to help them:
Adjustments to physical surroundings in order, for example to reduce noise levels or overcrowding.
Allocating some of the employee’s duties to another employee to reduce the workload.
Phased hours during a return to work programme.
Providing counseling or other forms of support such as a mentor
Transferring the employee to another job in order, for example, to enable him to report to another supervisor, work with different colleagues or have a less demanding position.
The DRC would always encourage employers to make adjustments as early as possible, as this often means that problems do not develop to such an extent that they become difficult for the employer and the employee. Employers subject to the Disability Equality Duty should be making even more effort to tackle stress at an organisation wide level, and to develop support mechanisms and reasonable adjustment provision in a proactive way, so that when people need it, it’s there, and thus they are supported to managed their condition.
Unions should also remind employers of their duty of care to their employees under Health and Safety at Work Legislation.
Prevention is always better than cure however, and the more that Unions can persuade employers to take a proactive and positive approach to helping employees deal with stress at work, the better things will be for everyone. There are clear benefits to employers to manage stress, which Unions could use to help persuade employers to take action:
· Work-related stress accounts for over a third of all new incidences of ill health.
· Each case of stress-related ill health leads to an average of 30.9 working days lost.
· A total of 12.8 million working days were lost to stress, depression and anxiety in 2004/5.
Unions could also encourage employers to adopt the Health and Safety’s stress management standards, as a way of working towards good practice on this issue, see the HSE’s website http://www.hse.gov.uk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.
Is stress a disability? – A Frequently Asked Question
This is a question which perplexes many employers, Union and other workplace representatives, and people who themselves who experience stress.
What is stress?
The Health and Safety Executive defines stress as:
'The adverse reaction people have to excessive pressure or other types of demand placed on them.' - HSE
This is because it is important to distinguish between stress and pressure. Pressure is a positive motivating force at work, but it may lead to stress, and therefore become a problem, if the person under pressure does not feel that they have the resources (personal or otherwise) to cope with pressure placed upon them.
It is also important to distinguish between stress, anxiety and depression.
Depression
Depression is on a spectrum from mild to severe. Depression is common in the general and working population. Symptoms include low mood and lack of energy. Motivation can be affected and people may experience thoughts of life not being worth living, which in extreme cases can lead to suicidal behaviour.
Anxiety
Anxiety becomes a problem when feelings of tension and fear prevent a person from carrying out everyday tasks. In extreme cases people may suffer panic attacks or phobias. Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) is a form of anxiety where people have recurrent, intrusive thoughts, which they may feel ‘forced’ to act on (e.g. fears of contamination leading to repetitive hand washing).
How do you decide if a member who has stress is disabled under the DDA?
When trying to decide whether a person who is experiencing stress falls within the definition of disability in the DDA, there are a number of matters that Union representatives need to take into consideration. Please note that this information should be read in conjunction with the document available from the DRC’s website:
‘Guidance on matters to be taken into account in determining questions relating to the definition
of disability’
1. Firstly under S 1 of DDA 1995 a person is defined as having a disability “if he has a physical or mental impairment which has a substantial and long term adverse effect on his ability to carry out normal day to day activities”. These are defined as:
mobility;
manual dexterity;
physical co-ordination;
continence;
ability to lift, carry or otherwise move everyday objects;
speech, hearing or eyesight;
memory or ability to concentrate, learn or understand; or
perception of the risk of physical danger.
2. Schedule 1 to the DDA as amended by the DDA 2005 now provides that people with a mental health problem no longer need to show that their particular impairment is ‘clinically well-recognised in order to satisfy the definition. The term ‘clinically well recognised’ means that the person’s mental health problem was recognised by a respected body of medical opinion, for example those conditions listed in the World Health Organisation’s International Classification of Diseases (WHO ICD10). This is no longer the case BUT:
3. The person would still have to demonstrate that they fit the DDA definition of disability. So how would this be determined? Union representatives would need to consider whether:
a. the impairment has lasted twelve months or is likely to last twelve months or more
b. the stress is having a substantial and adverse effect on the ability to carry out normal day to day activities
So, if a person is experiencing stress, but has only done so on and off for six months, they may not satisfy the ‘long-term’ requirement. However, if the substantial adverse effects of a condition are more likely than not to recur, they are treated as continuing. And if those effects are likely to recur beyond 12 months of the first occurrence they will qualify as ‘long-term’ under the DDA definition of disability.
It is common that most episodes of stress (but certainly not all) do not last longer than a few months and even acute episodes of depression may only last a few months, and thus it is crucial to determine whether the effects of the condition are substantial and adverse, and that they are more likely than not to recur.
If a person’s mental health problem is stress related, the day to day activity affected is very likely to be the individual’s memory or ability to concentrate, learn or understand, so unless it could be shown that the effect of the stress on these day to day activities was substantial and adverse, the person is unlikely to fit the definition in the DDA.
There may be one further way that people with stress may fit the DDA definition of disability, and that is if the stress can be shown to be exacerbating another pre-existing condition, such as Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (CFS). If this was the case, you should consider that although any one of these conditions on their own may not have substantial effect, together they may do, and so a person with another condition, exacerbated by stress, may be covered by the DDA because of the cumulative effects of both conditions together.
The key thing to consider here is whether the stress is rendering the employee unable to cope with his other condition, which without the stress, he would normally be able to cope with. So, for example, someone with CFS only may or may not fit the DDA definition, depending upon how severe their condition was. Some people with CFS, especially in its early stages, may still be able to cope well with normal day to day activities, and so would perhaps not fit the DDA definition of disability.
However, if they were suffering stress at work (and in many cases this can be due to employer’s seeming reluctant to make reasonable adjustments for people who they are not 100% sure are covered by the DDA), and if this stress makes their CFS worse as well as affecting their concentration and ability to deal with colleagues and issues at work, they may come under the DDA definition.
4. It should also be borne in mind that people who have had a disability in the past, but who have since recovered are still protected by the DDA, if, at the time they had it, their condition would have been covered by the DDA. This is very important as some people who have been off work for a long time in the past with stress or a mental health problem, may have recovered, but may still experience stigma and discrimination.
So what should Union representatives do?
If a Union representative has a member who reports that they are stressed, there are a number of reasonable adjustments that they can suggest to the employer to help them:
Adjustments to physical surroundings in order, for example to reduce noise levels or overcrowding.
Allocating some of the employee’s duties to another employee to reduce the workload.
Phased hours during a return to work programme.
Providing counseling or other forms of support such as a mentor
Transferring the employee to another job in order, for example, to enable him to report to another supervisor, work with different colleagues or have a less demanding position.
The DRC would always encourage employers to make adjustments as early as possible, as this often means that problems do not develop to such an extent that they become difficult for the employer and the employee. Employers subject to the Disability Equality Duty should be making even more effort to tackle stress at an organisation wide level, and to develop support mechanisms and reasonable adjustment provision in a proactive way, so that when people need it, it’s there, and thus they are supported to managed their condition.
Unions should also remind employers of their duty of care to their employees under Health and Safety at Work Legislation.
Prevention is always better than cure however, and the more that Unions can persuade employers to take a proactive and positive approach to helping employees deal with stress at work, the better things will be for everyone. There are clear benefits to employers to manage stress, which Unions could use to help persuade employers to take action:
· Work-related stress accounts for over a third of all new incidences of ill health.
· Each case of stress-related ill health leads to an average of 30.9 working days lost.
· A total of 12.8 million working days were lost to stress, depression and anxiety in 2004/5.
Unions could also encourage employers to adopt the Health and Safety’s stress management standards, as a way of working towards good practice on this issue, see the HSE’s website http://www.hse.gov.uk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.
So keep on moving, moving, moving your feet
Keep on shuf-shuf-shuffling to this ghost dance beat
Just keep on walking down never ending streets
Illegitimi non carborundum
Keep on shuf-shuf-shuffling to this ghost dance beat
Just keep on walking down never ending streets
Illegitimi non carborundum
-
mailman337
- Posts: 127
- Joined: 25 Jan 2009, 21:38
- Gender: Male
Re: possible dissmissal for being off sick !!!!
Mo, I know the feeling very well having arthritis which eventually (after a lot of hassle) they recognised as DDA. Fortunately I had a great union rep. Are you in the union ?? if you are then get your rep on the case, if you are not in the union then get paid up and join, or you won't stand a chance my friend. 
Get your Doctor/ specialist et all to put your condition in writing and give a copy to you so you can produce it at any interviews.
Depression does count as DDA as far as I know but dont take my word as gospel.
You may get more info from the ACAS, Gov.uk, and Citizens Advice.
Good luck m8 and PUT UP A FIGHT!!, and most important, with CWU support
:mfo :mfo :mfo :cfo :cfo
Get your Doctor/ specialist et all to put your condition in writing and give a copy to you so you can produce it at any interviews.
Depression does count as DDA as far as I know but dont take my word as gospel.
You may get more info from the ACAS, Gov.uk, and Citizens Advice.
Good luck m8 and PUT UP A FIGHT!!, and most important, with CWU support
:mfo :mfo :mfo :cfo :cfoMeet the new boss, same as the old boss
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ian1
- Posts: 15
- Joined: 19 Jan 2008, 20:01
Re: possible dissmissal for being off sick !!!!
It's a great pity that when people were offered the chance to join the CWU a number of years previously and then again only months ago,they didn't take the chance but would rather tell someone to f..k off,I'll never need the CWU 's help.
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mailman337
- Posts: 127
- Joined: 25 Jan 2009, 21:38
- Gender: Male
Re: possible dissmissal for being off sick !!!!
mailman337 wrote:Mo, I know the feeling very well having arthritis which eventually (after a lot of hassle) they recognised as DDA. Fortunately I had a great union rep. Are you in the union ?? if you are then get your rep on the case, if you are not in the union then get paid up and join, or you won't stand a chance my friend.
Get your Doctor/ specialist et all to put your condition in writing and give a copy to you so you can produce it at any interviews.
Depression does count as DDA as far as I know but dont take my word as gospel.
You may get more info from the ACAS, Gov.uk, and Citizens Advice.
Good luck m8 and PUT UP A FIGHT!!, and most important, with CWU support
Oh and let us know how you get on.
:cfo :cfo :mfo :mfo :mfo :mfo
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss
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mailman337
- Posts: 127
- Joined: 25 Jan 2009, 21:38
- Gender: Male
Re: possible dissmissal for being off sick !!!!
Well you never can be sure when you will need the union m8 I agree with you enirely, but if a previous non member joins the CWU at least they have come into the fold, out of the dark!!ian1 wrote:It's a great pity that when people were offered the chance to join the CWU a number of years previously and then again only months ago,they didn't take the chance but would rather tell someone to f..k off,I'll never need the CWU 's help.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss
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mailman337
- Posts: 127
- Joined: 25 Jan 2009, 21:38
- Gender: Male
Re: possible dissmissal for being off sick !!!!
This might be useful
http://83.137.212.42/sitearchive/DRC/li ... k_drc.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://83.137.212.42/sitearchive/DRC/li ... k_drc.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss
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DOM
- Posts: 140
- Joined: 20 Jun 2007, 18:35
Re: possible dissmissal for being off sick !!!!
First of all, it does not matter what the reasons were for being absent from work, if the amount of absences or days lost are more than the agreed standard then a stage warning is automatically triggered, meaning you get an invite to an interview.
At the interview, your CWU rep and yourself put a case forward for not being issued a stage warning or in your case being dismissed.
If you are not happy with the decision, there is an appeal process at stage 3 (rtu).
At the interview, your CWU rep and yourself put a case forward for not being issued a stage warning or in your case being dismissed.
If you are not happy with the decision, there is an appeal process at stage 3 (rtu).
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POSTMAN
- SITE ADMINISTRATOR
- Posts: 32699
- Joined: 07 Aug 2006, 03:19
- Gender: Male
Re: possible dissmissal for being off sick !!!!
If you are not happy with the decision 
I Wrote-During Covid-Which is still relevant now
It's good to get these types of threads, the ridiculous my manager said bollox, so we can reassure ourselves that while the world is falling apart, Royal Mail managers are still being the low-life C***S they have always been.
My BFF Clash
The daily grind of having to argue your case with an intellectual pigmy of a line manager is physically and emotionally draining.
It's good to get these types of threads, the ridiculous my manager said bollox, so we can reassure ourselves that while the world is falling apart, Royal Mail managers are still being the low-life C***S they have always been.
My BFF Clash
The daily grind of having to argue your case with an intellectual pigmy of a line manager is physically and emotionally draining.
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DGP1
- Posts: 15551
- Joined: 07 Jun 2007, 20:39
- Gender: Male
- Location: Terminus
Re: possible dissmissal for being off sick !!!!
As I've said before, I've never known a stage NOT to be issued, the worst was a stage issued for a miscarriageDOM wrote:First of all, it does not matter what the reasons were for being absent from work, if the amount of absences or days lost are more than the agreed standard then a stage warning is automatically triggered, meaning you get an invite to an interview.
At the interview, your CWU rep and yourself put a case forward for not being issued a stage warning or in your case being dismissed.
If you are not happy with the decision, there is an appeal process at stage 3 (rtu).
not to mention all those AOD that result in stages that cannot be appealed until the stage 3. I'm preparing myself for the zombie invasion, rule number 1 - Cardio
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norbert
- Posts: 3027
- Joined: 15 Jan 2008, 01:46
Re: possible dissmissal for being off sick !!!!
The whole point is to wear people down so they don't go outside the PO and make trouble for RM . What did that rep say on the Ebay forum - StalinistPOSTMAN wrote:
somebody has to I suppose - everybody singing from the same hymn sheet - " Nearer to my God than thee " as sung on the RMS Titantic would be apt
- the iceberg being deliberately running the business down for Privatization . RM did not recognize that document on Newsnight and there was " no plans " - funny how Mandy had a top secret document " accidentally " on display for the cameras and seemed well briefed .
Sorry DOM , the record sounds stuck , there's too much of a difference between all the superficial spin and the real RM - hence the big trust issues .
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sniper300c
- Posts: 3
- Joined: 19 Oct 2009, 00:08
- Gender: Male
Re: possible dissmissal for being off sick !!!!
Mo i'll help you mate. been there done that and f****d them big style.
i had 175 days absent over a 2year period for anxiety and depression they sent me a stage3 saying they had sent my attendance record to an ATOS doctor and they said there was no 'underlying reasons for my absences'
when it went to tribunal the chairman ripped the s**t out of the managers becuase at the time when they sent it i was going through some trouble with my meds and it nearly tipped me over the edge.
get in touch with me mate as i know exactly how you feel, i will do my very best to help you as much as possible.
i had 175 days absent over a 2year period for anxiety and depression they sent me a stage3 saying they had sent my attendance record to an ATOS doctor and they said there was no 'underlying reasons for my absences'
when it went to tribunal the chairman ripped the s**t out of the managers becuase at the time when they sent it i was going through some trouble with my meds and it nearly tipped me over the edge.
get in touch with me mate as i know exactly how you feel, i will do my very best to help you as much as possible.