OUR PENSION vs THE ROYALMAIL PROPAGANDA

[Night Tonic]

Sees to be a common theme - call to arms with no actual brains behind it but perhaps that goes with the 'club and pitchfork' mentality of militancy. These days unions are up against experts in the legal profession, the reason why loud mouths at rallies no longer win the day. The CWU needs equally sharp-minded individuals if its not to be seen as more than a budget working mans club. Not so many of those around either. Odd that.

[weetrogg]

Tman/ night tonic ive read a lot of your posts concerning many issue and although i dont like a lot of your posts i think espescially concerning the pensions you views are correct, that is to say that there may be some minor cosmectic changes but basically the changes that have gone through will remain. A question id like to ask you both is do you belive trade unionism is a force for good?


WE are the union

[Vulcan]

Can someone answer me this? Why are all the increases in food, utility, council tax, petrol ALL above inflation, & the majority of payrises to the workers either at or below the inflation rate? Why are the top salaries for executives & CEO's well above the inflation, when all industries all bemoaning the 'credit crunch' brought about by the top management themselves. Think about it, if you don't give a living/decent wage to the workers, they are going to have to have credit, then are more liable to default on repayments if their cost of living costs are MORE than the income thay receive. So if businesses were NOT so greedy for profit and were satisfied with less profit, BUT still make a profit, everyone would be happier and less liable to default on credit payments.

As for NT TMAN & CANTTYPE etc, they would be more credible if JUST occasionally they were to publicise some of the mistakes that RM (including Leighton & Crozier) have made. If the haven't made any mistakes, we need them 2 to run the country, 'cos Gordon 'Bottler' Brown is making a complete dog's dinner of the job.

[Night Tonic]

A question id like to ask you both is do you belive trade unionism is a force for good?

Categorically yes. In fact I've never said unions were bad things in one post on here. Much of what we have today isthe result of unions. What I don't like is small-minded individuals who think strikes are the answer to everything. The trouble with that philosophy is that the "we can only win" brigade invariaby don't stop to consider what will happen if they don't, or even (as now) the realities this country faces economically. Companies these days are sharp, very sharp, and the CWU has no more moved forward than RM has - its an old (even backward) organisation now that we live in a 'spin' orientated world. Strikes are ok, IF you have the brains to back it but the CWU is too old fashioned and does not have the same level of expertise in legal matters. Strikes make far more enemies than friends, are rarely successful, and few can be in any doubt that despite the solidarity of miners, they were not seen by most as 'heroes'.

[axeman]

Ah nt with his 'union hat on' dont you think the cwu uses lawyers etc.. or ever consult them. could not win any it's without them could they ?
and sometimes actions do speak louder than words !!

Strikes not sucessful if that were so royal fail would have steamrollered everything in place by now without any consultation whatsoever. However you don't want to back your union at all.

Small minded totaly reject that if we see fit to back the union and have a self belief that we can obtain better results from that wether that entails ia or not then we reserve that right please don't tar everyone who posts as 'union fanatics' with the same brush. The fact is they are willing to stand up against an employer who will use bullying managers and every trick they can muster to make there oppresive regime work (or at least seemingly work)

Spin ? the only spin i see is from royal fail

the miners still walk with there heads held high we all know the tatics that thatchers government used

[DGP1]

and k979 if you live in your one bedroom flat with no holidays and only the one car yet you get 8p/h and s**t load of benifits on top then i suggest you stop wasting it on the heroine

Superheroes can be soooooo expensive

[Night Tonic]

the miners still walk with there heads held high we all know the tatics that thatchers government used

And no job - yeah right.....yawn.....

[DGP1]

the miners still walk with there heads held high we all know the tatics that thatchers government used

And no job - yeah right.....yawn.....

And no coal mines because we can buy it in cheaper from abroad (that's gonna come back to bite us in the future)

[rockytony67]

Who said you had to take it on the chin? But again, what makes you think that we in particular should get preferential treatment and those outside RM that have lost theirs entirely (of which there are tens of thousands) - are you likely to convince them that YOUR pension is more important? You'll need to justify that one, orat least the CWU will. The analogy/comparision with a mortgage doesn't work in that context either as you HAVEN'T paid off your pension, so it doesn't compare.

But I've payed 23 years worth of service into my pension, my contract says that RM will pay into it as well in those years, but they have only payed 8 years into it, so now they tell me I have two take a cut of £1800 per year, don't you think they should honer there commitment and pay the other 15 years in, as for the mortgage point you are right and I didnt put it well, so if I put it this way, you take a mortgage for £100,000 pay off £50,000 and then get told sorry we want another £100,000 from you before you own your house, you say but I've got a contract that says I only have to pay £100,000 and they say sorry contracts mean nothing to us we make it up as we go along, you would be spitting feathers, and thats just how I feel, as for cantypeANDSHOUTS I have to say that you calling me an arse is one of the greatest moments of my life, and I think you with all my heart

[k979aaa]

For which fool would think this would be the end of it!. Our pension is but just one item in royalfail's agender!. How about sick pay and monthly pay and not least we forget holiday pay for BEND YOUR KNEE'S NOW TAKE IT UP THE AR*E LATER!

[Night Tonic]

Who said you had to take it on the chin? But again, what makes you think that we in particular should get preferential treatment and those outside RM that have lost theirs entirely (of which there are tens of thousands) - are you likely to convince them that YOUR pension is more important? You'll need to justify that one, orat least the CWU will. The analogy/comparision with a mortgage doesn't work in that context either as you HAVEN'T paid off your pension, so it doesn't compare.

But I've payed 23 years worth of service into my pension, my contract says that RM will pay into it as well in those years, but they have only payed 8 years into it, so now they tell me I have two take a cut of £1800 per year, don't you think they should honer there commitment and pay the other 15 years in, as for the mortgage point you are right and I didnt put it well, so if I put it this way, you take a mortgage for £100,000 pay off £50,000 and then get told sorry we want another £100,000 from you before you own your house, you say but I've got a contract that says I only have to pay £100,000 and they say sorry contracts mean nothing to us we make it up as we go along, you would be spitting feathers, and thats just how I feel, as for cantypeANDSHOUTS I have to say that you calling me an arse is one of the greatest moments of my life, and I think you with all my heart

You're not wrong in feeling cheated Rocky, but perhaps my years through changes of government and the realisation that nothing is what it seems is why I have a 'belt and braces' approach to everything in life. Thats partly why I opted for two pensions. The writing has been on the wall for public sector pensions for at least ten years and even if there was no deficit (which actually Royal Mail ARE paying off, even if slowly) you'd still be facing massive changes to your pension. Most can expect to live well into their 80s these days and thats a massive cost. The deficit wouldn't have made much difference to that. I know of other pensions where the deficits were not plugged, or no plan put forward to clear them, and they collapsed entirely leaving all those that paid in with virtually nothing. Mortgages and house values are dependent (for most people) on the state of the economy too.

We ARE faced with a brassic economy right now which is why I keep saying that downing tools won't change this. I do agree that we should not roll over, but
clubs and pitchforks are no match for this situation. I'm no different to many others in feeling I was 'robbed' (as some describe it) by Thatcher's government, but its been a very long time (if ever) that money paid into anything was really secure.

[Vulcan]

Who said you had to take it on the chin? But again, what makes you think that we in particular should get preferential treatment and those outside RM that have lost theirs entirely (of which there are tens of thousands) - are you likely to convince them that YOUR pension is more important? You'll need to justify that one, orat least the CWU will. The analogy/comparision with a mortgage doesn't work in that context either as you HAVEN'T paid off your pension, so it doesn't compare.

But I've payed 23 years worth of service into my pension, my contract says that RM will pay into it as well in those years, but they have only payed 8 years into it, so now they tell me I have two take a cut of £1800 per year, don't you think they should honer there commitment and pay the other 15 years in, as for the mortgage point you are right and I didnt put it well, so if I put it this way, you take a mortgage for £100,000 pay off £50,000 and then get told sorry we want another £100,000 from you before you own your house, you say but I've got a contract that says I only have to pay £100,000 and they say sorry contracts mean nothing to us we make it up as we go along, you would be spitting feathers, and thats just how I feel, as for cantypeANDSHOUTS I have to say that you calling me an arse is one of the greatest moments of my life, and I think you with all my heart

You're not wrong in feeling cheated Rocky, but perhaps my years through changes of government and the realisation that nothing is what it seems is why I have a 'belt and braces' approach to everything in life. Thats partly why I opted for two pensions. The writing has been on the wall for public sector pensions for at least ten years and even if there was no deficit (which actually Royal Mail ARE paying off, even if slowly) you'd still be facing massive changes to your pension. Most can expect to live well into their 80s these days and thats a massive cost. The deficit wouldn't have made much difference to that. I know of other pensions where the deficits were not plugged, or no plan put forward to clear them, and they collapsed entirely leaving all those that paid in with virtually nothing. Mortgages and house values are dependent (for most people) on the state of the economy too.

We ARE faced with a brassic economy right now which is why I keep saying that downing tools won't change this. I do agree that we should not roll over, but
clubs and pitchforks are no match for this situation. I'm no different to many others in feeling I was 'robbed' (as some describe it) by Thatcher's government, but its been a very long time (if ever) that money paid into anything was really secure.

I think you are quite wrong NT, when did companies start to stop Final Salary Schemes? It has been going on for at least 10 years, and the only reason is that it is cheaper and therefore gives MORE PROFIT to companies. The government of whichever hue did not have the courage to stand up to the greed of the carpetbagger takeover companies. The so called 'credit crunch' is the result of GREED of banks initially in the US and subsequently in the UK (who invested/took loans in the US) who supplied credit to anyone who wanted it without thought of any safeguards. Now countless people/banks/companies defaulting on loans/investments/mortgages has caused the credit crunch, because the business world has abandoned its ethics and this is the result. Just look at ENRON (cooking the books) just like RM. As usual its the worker who suffers for the folly of business managers.

[k979aaa]

Who said you had to take it on the chin? But again, what makes you think that we in particular should get preferential treatment and those outside RM that have lost theirs entirely (of which there are tens of thousands) - are you likely to convince them that YOUR pension is more important? You'll need to justify that one, orat least the CWU will. The analogy/comparision with a mortgage doesn't work in that context either as you HAVEN'T paid off your pension, so it doesn't compare.

But I've payed 23 years worth of service into my pension, my contract says that RM will pay into it as well in those years, but they have only payed 8 years into it, so now they tell me I have two take a cut of £1800 per year, don't you think they should honer there commitment and pay the other 15 years in, as for the mortgage point you are right and I didnt put it well, so if I put it this way, you take a mortgage for £100,000 pay off £50,000 and then get told sorry we want another £100,000 from you before you own your house, you say but I've got a contract that says I only have to pay £100,000 and they say sorry contracts mean nothing to us we make it up as we go along, you would be spitting feathers, and thats just how I feel, as for cantypeANDSHOUTS I have to say that you calling me an arse is one of the greatest moments of my life, and I think you with all my heart

You're not wrong in feeling cheated Rocky, but perhaps my years through changes of government and the realisation that nothing is what it seems is why I have a 'belt and braces' approach to everything in life. Thats partly why I opted for two pensions. The writing has been on the wall for public sector pensions for at least ten years and even if there was no deficit (which actually Royal Mail ARE paying off, even if slowly) you'd still be facing massive changes to your pension. Most can expect to live well into their 80s these days and thats a massive cost. The deficit wouldn't have made much difference to that. I know of other pensions where the deficits were not plugged, or no plan put forward to clear them, and they collapsed entirely leaving all those that paid in with virtually nothing. Mortgages and house values are dependent (for most people) on the state of the economy too.

We ARE faced with a brassic economy right now which is why I keep saying that downing tools won't change this. I do agree that we should not roll over, but
clubs and pitchforks are no match for this situation. I'm no different to many others in feeling I was 'robbed' (as some describe it) by Thatcher's government, but its been a very long time (if ever) that money paid into anything was really secure.

I think you are quite wrong NT, when did companies start to stop Final Salary Schemes? It has been going on for at least 10 years, and the only reason is that it is cheaper and therefore gives MORE PROFIT to companies. The government of whichever hue did not have the courage to stand up to the greed of the carpetbagger takeover companies. The so called 'credit crunch' is the result of GREED of banks initially in the US and subsequently in the UK (who invested/took loans in the US) who supplied credit to anyone who wanted it without thought of any safeguards. Now countless people/banks/companies defaulting on loans/investments/mortgages has caused the credit crunch, because the business world has abandoned its ethics and this is the result. Just look at ENRON (cooking the books) just like RM. As usual its the worker who suffers for the folly of business managers.

[axeman]

Please nt tell us which companys have changed there pension scheme from a final salary one to whatever... in any of the big industries that we know in the u.k ......or would royal fail be the first if you have your way

[Stormproof]

As I said, the value of pensions go up and down and contracts for insurance, pensions, loans etc are never entirely secure. If the value of your home drops, should the rest of the country pay the difference? I'm not saying that its RIGHT that pensions should be devalued, but you cannot assume that everyone else will pick up the tab or that YOUR pension is more important than everyone elses.

So you are saying it's not RIGHT but we should just take it on the chin, well obviously I don't know if you have a mortgage but how would you feel if your mortgage provider decided that after you had payed it off, turned around and said sorry we know you have kept your side of the bargain, but we've got no money due to our mismanagement of our financial services and as such you only own half your house, would you take it on the chin, and say it's only a contract and they are never entirely secure. Some how I doubt it, I could accept the pension being less then the forecast I have received for 23 years if it was a couple of £100, but they want me on a pension £12,268(not exactly a kings ransom is it) to take a cut of £1800 per year, I don't expect anyone to feel sorry for me but I do expect my contract to be honoured?

Who said you had to take it on the chin? But again, what makes you think that we in particular should get preferential treatment and those outside RM that have lost theirs entirely (of which there are tens of thousands) - are you likely to convince them that YOUR pension is more important? You'll need to justify that one, orat least the CWU will. The analogy/comparision with a mortgage doesn't work in that context either as you HAVEN'T paid off your pension, so it doesn't compare.

N/T surrender monkey?!. one who has given up before the start either one has nothing to lose or one is a fool or both!.

now what did i tell you about talking outta your arse???

if you umm people cant even understand how a pension fund works you really shouldn't comment till you know.comparing a pension to a morgage ,paying it off ,please .

and k979 if you live in your one bedroom flat with no holidays and only the one car yet you get 8p/h and s**t load of benifits on top then i suggest you stop wasting it on the heroine

Actually it was me that mentioned living in a FLAT and I DON'T HAVE A CAR, you really should learn how to read No I'm not a drug addict and I very rarely drink, I am trying to bring up 2 children on my wage! ******* *****!!!!!!!!!!!!