CLOCKING IN/OUT MACHINES GONE ?

[Cucumber]

So how will it affect those that finish on the street? Will their walk partner scan them out?

They won’t be finishing on the street anymore

This quote is from RM's letter dated 11 Aug 22 (so not a CWU statement/opinion) attached to LTB 346/22 re finishing 'on the street':

It is recognised that in some locations agreed operational arrangements and overtime
arrangements/commitments are in place which mean that individuals do not return to the unit after
completing their delivery, it is confirmed that individuals can use a combination of the Static PDA and
Walk PDA to record start/finish of the duty.

Vague enough for people to do what they want.

[SpacePhoenix]

So how will it affect those that finish on the street? Will their walk partner scan them out?

They won’t be finishing on the street anymore

This quote is from RM's letter dated 11 Aug 22 (so not a CWU statement/opinion) attached to LTB 346/22 re finishing 'on the street':

It is recognised that in some locations agreed operational arrangements and overtime
arrangements/commitments are in place which mean that individuals do not return to the unit after
completing their delivery, it is confirmed that individuals can use a combination of the Static PDA and
Walk PDA to record start/finish of the duty.

Vague enough for people to do what they want.

Unless RM monitor the route taken and the location where the scan out scan is made, it would make SISO a waste of time as people could scan out when they're no where near the route

[world class male]

com "can you do me an extra duty today, I'm stuck, I'll pay you 5hrs"
pat "what about signing out, I'll probably be done inside 3hrs but I ain't doing a double for that"
com "don't worry, I'll add it on manually, office will be shut, just pull battery off pda"
pat "cool"
com (silent) "phew, that's got me my bonus for clearing office sorted even if it cost's the company money"

and don't anyone say this ain't so

[SpacePhoenix]

com "can you do me an extra duty today, I'm stuck, I'll pay you 5hrs"
pat "what about signing out, I'll probably be done inside 3hrs but I ain't doing a double for that"
com "don't worry, I'll add it on manually, office will be shut, just pull battery off pda"
pat "cool"
com (silent) "phew, that's got me my bonus for clearing office sorted even if it cost's the company money"

and don't anyone say this ain't so

Don't think the COM will be able to do that really, as the SISO gets monitored by Sheffield. They're bound to have some program running to check the SISO data ties up with OT data.

[world class male]

i asked a com yesterday and he said it will be done otherwise he'll pi55 off all the double'duty gang big style and be left with a very big headache
trust me, without overtime this company would be on it's knees within hours not days, but our own cwu don't see it this way,
remember the num/udm? this but on a very much smaller scale obviously but would be the result but enough to kill the industry

[Cucumber]

I think people who are looking/hoping for SISO to make any difference to the daily office shenanigans should prepare themselves for it not to be the case.

[BigSacks]

This forum never ceases to amaze.

Reams of posts about how the company is out to screw us over at every turn, a whole sub-topic devoted to “the good old days” yet countless people gleeful like a Victorian mill owner that there will be people unable to finish a single second before their allocated time.

Who needs enemies eh?

[world class male]

I think people who are looking/hoping for SISO to make any difference to the daily office shenanigans should prepare themselves for it not to be the case.

exactly, they wouldn't employ a new technology like a digital signing in machine that was available decades ago if it wouldn't suit them, they will absolutely use these machines against those who just want to simply do their daily job, some days easy others hard, but you can't leave unless done!
double'duty gang don't think of this because they are protected, their overtime will still start once own job done, definitely won't be clocked
and i won't shy away from the pt who who do more than hours than a basic ft who somehow are exempt from us complaining about, they are both exactly the same, overtime is overtime no matter what picture you paint, time for the cwu big wigs to ballot for "work your contracted hours only"
they won't of course and that's when the union will die, they ain't backing down on this, short term loss long time gain is all i'm saying

[SpacePhoenix]

i asked a com yesterday and he said it will be done otherwise he'll pi55 off all the double'duty gang big style and be left with a very big headache
trust me, without overtime this company would be on it's knees within hours not days, but our own cwu don't see it this way,
remember the num/udm? this but on a very much smaller scale obviously but would be the result but enough to kill the industry

Doubt the COM will get any say in it, as RM won't want to be paying people when they're not working.

[world class male]

i asked a com yesterday and he said it will be done otherwise he'll pi55 off all the double'duty gang big style and be left with a very big headache
trust me, without overtime this company would be on it's knees within hours not days, but our own cwu don't see it this way,
remember the num/udm? this but on a very much smaller scale obviously but would be the result but enough to kill the industry

Doubt the COM will get any say in it, as RM won't want to be paying people when they're not working.

it's already happening here and we have the new si/so machines so believe me when i say if a com is stuck to clear/cover a duty they will add extra for the agreed time given regardless of clocking off time, they know full well that they won't do an extra duty for actual time taken to deliver it, 5hrs o/t for 3 1/2hrs worked will always continue because the job will be absolutely shot without o/t
i hear loads of ft & pt saying they absolutely must have ot to live but surely the cwu must at least ballot the o/t ban option for at least a week to trial it for disruption in early december after our latest strike dates finish to commence the following week, but this must me done asap to hit them at the peak,
the argument on agency workers will linger, but honestly ours are completely useless, average 20/30 parcels per pair per day inc the hire van! they cannot employ more unless they start after we have finished or hire even more vans!
let them do all the oversize inc priorities for just 1 single week and it will be a catastrophe
all us basic pay workers have taken the hits on strikes so far, let the overtime brigade who have been raking in even more cash than normal take one for a week
if we don't make any progress over xmas then we're fecked but it takes a month to act so why don't the cwu act now when they are imposing all sorts of action

[woofwoof]

Dear Colleagues,

Royal Mail’s National Deployment of SISO within Delivery

We are writing to update you further to Letter to Branches (LTB 346/22) issued on the 24th August and the Outdoor Department Memo (ODM) 30/22 issued on the 16th September regarding Royal Mail’s notification to progress with the deployment of Scan In/Scan Out (SISO) in Deliveries, attached for ease of reference.

To recap, on 12th August the Outdoor Department received correspondence from Royal Mail which formally confirmed that the Company intend to progress with the deployment of SISO in delivery units. In summary, the notice of intention from Royal Mail confirms that SISO will be first deployed in a number of Sheffield Delivery units during the first week of October, (which they later confirmed would also include units in Northern Ireland) moving to a national rollout at the end of October.

Since then, there has been an ongoing exchange of correspondence with Royal Mail on this matter and further meetings and discussions, whereby we have continued to make clear that the Company should not move ahead with the deployment of SISO within the delivery function at this current point in time. It was also re-iterated that the CWU would not support any such National rollout, given the union’s real and direct concerns that Royal Mail is seeking to adapt SISO in order to be a key component and facilitator of their ‘yearly flexi hours/flexi time’ change demands, as previously outlined in LTB 346/22.

Whilst it remains clear that the CWU’s position is not to support the rollout of Scan In/Scan Out, as outlined previously, we had requested from Royal Mail on a ‘without prejudice’ basis their direct employee communication materials, including any WTLL Briefs, in order for us to be fully aware of the messaging and also in order for us to circulate any updated information to our Representatives and Branches.

This request to Royal Mail on their direct employee communication materials has now been further complicated, given the recent developments linked to our national dispute and the recent letter from Royal Mail’s CEO Simon Thompson to Dave Ward CWU General Secretary, which served notice on a number of key National Agreements, including agreements that covers the introduction of new technology and the use of data for individuals. This wider development is set out in LTB 384/22, also attached.

As Branches and Representatives are aware, there are a number of safeguards and commitments contained within several National Agreements to which Royal Mail has now informed the CWU that they will no longer apply or honour as from the 21st October. This notice includes those commitments contained within the Pathway to Change Agreement which specifically refers to the introduction of SISO. Accordingly, we have now written to Royal Mail requesting that they urgently clarify their position on these aspects.

Whilst we await a reply from Royal Mail on their employee communication materials and on the wider application of the commitments contained within the Pathway to Change Agreement surrounding SISO, it is necessary to again point out that we have been very clear with Royal Mail that we do not support the National rollout and deployment of SISO in delivery units.

To repeat, from a CWU perspective we remain fully committed to our National Agreements including the Pathway to Change Agreement. It is Royal Mail’s current unacceptable approach, their unacceptable behaviour, including their change demands of also seeking to use this technology to introduce total flexible working, annualised hours and a flexi banking hours’ system, which is directly outside of our National agreements.

We fully recognise the need to provide advice and guidance for our Representatives and for our members who will be faced with the request to SISO when an individual starts/finishes work and also the focus and pressures that this will bring in regards to managers capturing the collective hours of attendance of individuals. However, whilst we are in opposition to the deployment, for the clear reasons outlined, we believe that our advice to our members is that they should comply with any instruction from managers to log in/out, (scan in/out) as would be the case with the current paper based system.

Whilst we fully appreciate the difficulty this creates for our Branches and Representatives, we are aware that Royal Mail is looking to issue guidelines to their managers on the issue of non-compliance in terms of the use of SISO, which we further understand will include reference to the Conduct process in the case of persistent non-compliance.

However, in outlining the above it is also relevant to point out to Branches that following legal advice it has been confirmed that our national ‘Change Ballot’ can be used to announce strike action at selected units where Royal Mail seeks to move forward executive action. This applies where the local executive action is in breach of the Pathway to Change and associated agreements as set out in the ‘Change Ballot’. There is no need for these units to ballot again separately but Branches would have to request additional strike action in time to allow for endorsement of the Postal Executive and the mandatory notice period to be given.

Therefore, the Postal Executive has been clear that any attempts by Royal Mail to use SISO for resourcing, or revisions, or for disciplinary purposes or to seek to introduce total flexible working, annualised hours or a flexi banking hours’ system; or to use the system beyond these commitments contained within paragraph 2.5 Technology of the Pathway to Change Agreement will be opposed by all means possible, including the use of the ‘Change Ballot’ mandate. This will also include any attempts by Royal Mail to break the commitment in the Pathway to Change Agreement that SISO data will not be used for the automatic reduction of contractual pay or reduce overtime pay where a (verbal) contract has been agreed with the manager, prior to commencement.

In the case of our Safety Representatives, we are also mindful of their legal and wider responsibilities on workplace safety. Given that, we would advise that they do need to engage on all the required Health & Safety elements of SISO, including the positioning and installation of the equipment at local level, and equally, raise concerns and issues accordingly and via the RMG/CWU Health & Safety Dispute and Escalation Process as necessary (as outlined in LTB 692/19).

It is Royal Mail’s current unacceptable approach and change demands which are directly outside of the Pathway to Change National Agreement, which is the issue, alongside their wider and ongoing contempt for the Union and our members as further highlighted last week, not the concept of a move to a technology based signing in/out system which simply replaces the current paper based system.

Whilst we will keep Branches and Representatives advised of developments, any queries to the content of the above please contact the Outdoor Department reference 540, email address: njones@cwu.org

Yours sincerely,



Mark Baulch
CWU Assistant Secretary

[Dorset Plodder]

So what happens when RM switch on this system and say, "Right everyone's got to sign in and out using the scanner and their ID cards starting this morning"? are we all meant to say "It's not been agreed we're not using it"?

And if we don't use the SISO are we going to get paid?

I understand the situation and the principles at stake ... but what are we meant to do from day one? I'm asking because this rather long winded letter doesn't make it very clear IMO.

[2yearpostie]

Use the machine, if they want to shaft us theyve got plenty of ways of doing it without this it wont make any difference.

[Woody Guthrie]

So what happens when RM switch on this system and say, "Right everyone's got to sign in and out using the scanner and their ID cards starting this morning"? are we all meant to say "It's not been agreed we're not using it"?

And if we don't use the SISO are we going to get paid?

The answer is in the LTB although I grant you it could be easier to find..

we believe that our advice to our members is that they should comply with any instruction from managers to log in/out, (scan in/out) as would be the case with the current paper based system.

[k979aaa]

So what happens when RM switch on this system and say, "Right everyone's got to sign in and out using the scanner and their ID cards starting this morning"? are we all meant to say "It's not been agreed we're not using it"?

And if we don't use the SISO are we going to get paid?

I understand the situation and the principles at stake ... but what are we meant to do from day one? I'm asking because this rather long winded letter doesn't make it very clear IMO.

Union will conduct local ballot or issue THE EMPLOYER of a local disagreement kind of like the I/R framework and the union will tell the staff what they should do. Most probably take all your meal reliefs and don't start early or just do not use the scan in scan out!