It's over.

[Smoothbackground]

Considering the agency had to bump up wages 20%+ to get staff in December, I think you may be optimistic to think that RM can attract staff on the current wages and conditions offered.

It was £13.37 last year and £16.58 an hour this year with the agency so they will not retain many new staff on just over £12 an hour or whatever they are offering now.

The agency rate was in fact £24 per hour last year (2022), dropping to £16.58 on or about 10 Jan 2023.

[scotchy1962]

Welcome to the 'Amazon' method of employment pal. Race to the bottom for working terms and conditions unfortunately.

I'm a seniority big shot on the legacy contract. I'm pulling the ladder up.

I think once the % of people on the newer contracts reaches a certain amount, RM will force everyone over to the new contracts, anyone who doesn't go over will have to leave the business. It'll be down to the point where it becomes cheaper to force everyone out whose not on a new contract, when employment tribunal costs are factored in

You could well be right.... but it will cost them and at least the people will have a choice, take the new contract or take the pay off.
I think you will find that it isn't as easy as you think to force a new contract on people especially if there's still 40 or 50 thousand of them. And the rate the newbies leave at probably means it could be years down the line, on the other hand who knows with this bunch of forward thinking half-wits in charge, they could try just about anything legal or illegal to get their way.

I think companies can issue employees with new contracts as long as the employees are given notice. I know in my wife's workplace (she worked in further education) they were given 12 weeks notice of changes to contract and it was a case of accept it or leave, their choice.

I would say "Leave" is not the option, pay off perhaps or a constructive dismissal would be on the cards.
We still have a few employment laws to work with and that would be one of them.

[scotchy1962]

If you've been on over 30 years and you drop hours from 37 to 32 per week, does that mean you go on the same terms and conditions as a new starter?

They will try to get you to take a new contract, a few in my small office have been made up to 30hrs from 20 and have been told that Sunday working is in the new contracts, although they have been told it will probably never happen, i wouldn't be signing as it's only a variation in hours nothing else but it's up to them.

[SpacePhoenix]

Welcome to the 'Amazon' method of employment pal. Race to the bottom for working terms and conditions unfortunately.

I'm a seniority big shot on the legacy contract. I'm pulling the ladder up.

I think once the % of people on the newer contracts reaches a certain amount, RM will force everyone over to the new contracts, anyone who doesn't go over will have to leave the business. It'll be down to the point where it becomes cheaper to force everyone out whose not on a new contract, when employment tribunal costs are factored in

You could well be right.... but it will cost them and at least the people will have a choice, take the new contract or take the pay off.
I think you will find that it isn't as easy as you think to force a new contract on people especially if there's still 40 or 50 thousand of them. And the rate the newbies leave at probably means it could be years down the line, on the other hand who knows with this bunch of forward thinking half-wits in charge, they could try just about anything legal or illegal to get their way.

I think companies can issue employees with new contracts as long as the employees are given notice. I know in my wife's workplace (she worked in further education) they were given 12 weeks notice of changes to contract and it was a case of accept it or leave, their choice.

I would say "Leave" is not the option, pay off perhaps or a constructive dismissal would be on the cards.
We still have a few employment laws to work with and that would be one of them.

I believe that RM wouldn't have any obligation to take them back. It'll be down to if the cost of any financial penalty is worth it in their opinion to just force everyone over to the new contracts.

[scotchy1962]

Think you will find P&O tried that and although they either accepted or left they still had to pay them off. If you multiply that by how many old contracts are still knocking around = to much for RM to pay in one hit and have no workforce left.
Any present employee accepting anything more being added onto their contract in return for the extra hours is taking a chance they don't end up doing every Sunday, especially if we go to 5 day letters, and it's scaremongering to say we could all be given the choice of new contracts or leaving.

[Ren Hoëk]

I think RM are learning that their new contracts aren't fit for purpose. Struggling to retain new starters and only time will tell how long those that do stay in the short term stay in the long term. The role of Postman isn't as casual as they thought it was. Quality comes with experience. Those with the physical and mental fortitude to do the job is found out in time and attrition. That equilibrium was found with the old style contract. The new ones IMO wont serve RM well and the sooner they learn that lesson the better.

Don't even get me started on the impact the new sick policy is having on outdoor staff.

[claretandblue]

Welcome to the 'Amazon' method of employment pal. Race to the bottom for working terms and conditions unfortunately.

I'm a seniority big shot on the legacy contract. I'm pulling the ladder up.

I think once the % of people on the newer contracts reaches a certain amount, RM will force everyone over to the new contracts, anyone who doesn't go over will have to leave the business. It'll be down to the point where it becomes cheaper to force everyone out whose not on a new contract, when employment tribunal costs are factored in

They can't retain any of the new staff, more likely that their contracts are brought in line with ours.

[sweepster70]

Think you will find P&O tried that and although they either accepted or left they still had to pay them off. If you multiply that by how many old contracts are still knocking around = to much for RM to pay in one hit and have no workforce left.
Any present employee accepting anything more being added onto their contract in return for the extra hours is taking a chance they don't end up doing every Sunday, especially if we go to 5 day letters, and it's scaremongering to say we could all be given the choice of new contracts or leaving.

I believe with P&O, they were given very good terms, even though it's still wrong and a shock to the system. There was only one employee who turned this down, and won in court. I believe he received substantially more. I could also be talking s**t?

[postslippete]

I'm not an expert in employment law but what happened with P&O ferries is unlikely to happen at RM


First, In the case of P&O, maritime laws and the laws of the countries were the ships were registered often override UK employment laws and it was this that allowed P&O to employ staff on less than national min wage. This is unlikely to happen at Royal Mail because, with the exception of apprentices and those under 19, it's still a British based company with IDS still registered in London.

Second, there were less than a thousand workers involve in the P&O scandal. I imagine it would be very difficult for RM to sack thousands of postal workers and somehow replace them with workers who are prepared to work for less than £4 an hour.

Thirdly, P&O were forced to offer very generous redundancy terms with two and a half weeks salary for each year of employment as well as up to 13 weeks in lieu of notice and a further 13 weeks salary due to the absence of a consultation period. P&O actually ended up paying £36.5 million in compensation. Considering that RM have already run a VR scheme and reduced their redundancy period afaik only the few people that were on long term sick in our office got offered the redundancy pay.

On the subject of RM forcing us to sign up to inferior contracts, many thousands have already left the business as it changed its existing pay, terms and working conditions. The CWU don't agree with the new contracts that Royal Mail have brought out for new staff and they want to 'level' them up towards ours. The company could offer what they believe as a suitable 'alternative' job on contracts with less pay but that would be a good enough reason to refuse it and go through a tribunal; you would then have a right for either constructive dismissal and/or redundancy pay if you have worked for your employer for at least 2 years. And there are many of us wanting redundancy!!